Are chromatic button accordions faster than piano accordions?

[Ed S]

Ok, I know, WHO'S PLAYING IT?

I play PA and would like to be fast enough to sometimes play melody for contra dances, which on some tunes go as fast as 240 notes per minute (120 metronome). I'm quite sure I'll never be nearly that fast on PA, at least not while playing crisply and accurately.

Does the action of a CBA lend itself to faster playing than the action of a PA? It would seem so from Youtube, but maybe there are just more CBA virtuosi posting.

And if CBA's are generally faster...
How much do CBA actions vary in playing speed? And if a lot, what should I be looking at for a fast starter/practice 5-row CBA (hopefully cheap)? A Roland FR-1xb? A cheap bayan, like this Orfey? or maybe something like the Excelsior CBA listed (scroll down) at the Free Reed? Since I'll be just starting, I can't really tell playing speed yet for myself!

(I've not decided on B-griff or C-griff.)

 

[debra]

Of course there are differences between accordion models and different keyboard mechanics, but in theory they should all allow for equally fast action when they are of similar quality. (A high end accordion may offer lighter touch and faster action than a lower end accordion.)
Whether you can play them equally fast depends on what it is you are trying to play. Playing chromatic scales can often go faster on CBA because they are much easier. But a very fast C scale can be done as a glissando on PA and must be played note by note on CBA, so here the PA is faster...
As a long time PA player and now (since about 14 years) CBA player I cannot say that the keyboard mechanics have made a difference.

 

[SteveBox]

Listen to the performance by John and Phil Cunningham of Silly Wizard. This will demonstrate conclusively that it is possible to play a PA as fast as any fiddler. I played PA for many years, then switched to CBA. CBA has a number of advantages that appealed to me, but the PA has other advantages. Here is a detailed analysis of the pros and cons: https://nydana.se/accordiontest.pdf

I think one can play either of them plenty fast enough for contra dances, with enough practice, of course. Diatonic accordions are another choice. They lend themselves to speed because you have two different notes on each button, and so your fingers do not have to move as much.

If you are far along with your PA playing, you might want to stick with it, as switching to another system will cause your speed to greatly decrease while you learn the new system. But, if you are a beginner, then now may be the time to consider switching, if you have a compelling reason to do so. With any of them, expect it to take many years of practice to reach the level of playing demonstrated by Phil.

 

[Ed S]

Of course there are differences between accordion models and different keyboard mechanics, but in theory they should all allow for equally fast action when they are of similar quality. (A high end accordion may offer lighter touch and faster action than a lower end accordion.)
Whether you can play them equally fast depends on what it is you are trying to play. Playing chromatic scales can often go faster on CBA because they are much easier. But a very fast C scale can be done as a glissando on PA and must be played note by note on CBA, so here the PA is faster...
As a long time PA player and now (since about 14 years) CBA player I cannot say that the keyboard mechanics have made a difference.

Paul, thanks much!

It's hard to guess which system the music lends itself to the best, but speed is limited by the most difficult passage in a tune, usually made difficult by awkward fingering or black key interference, occasionally by leaps.

Can you elaborate on accordion "quality" specific to speed? Are there particular characteristics to look for? One possible example: on a Brandoni I saw yesterday, the keys are thin from top to bottom (as seen from the hand); you can see under each key, so maybe they're lighter? Should I look for keys with a slightly shorter range of motion? Should I be looking for valves that open and shut crisply, rather than expressively? Does noisy usually mean slow too?

 

[OuijaBoard]

Can you elaborate on accordion "quality" specific to speed? Are there particular characteristics to look for? One possible example: on a Brandoni I saw yesterday, the keys are thin from top to bottom (as seen from the hand); you can see under each key, so maybe they're lighter? Should I look for keys with a slightly shorter range of motion? Should I be looking for valves that open and shut crisply, rather than expressively? Does noisy usually mean slow too?

Without speaking for de bra, to address the last paragraph of your post: The "particular characteristics to look for," are personal to what fits and works for you. Some like more "travel" or "range of motion" between the key and soundboard (or button and soundboard). Others like less. Some like "heavier" feeling keys. Others like lighter. Some like stiffer action, others like looser--same with the bass buttons. On a PA, some like full-size keys (20mm is standard fullsize). Others like 19mm or the even thinner keys that used to be called "ladies size."

With CBA, for example, I do like "stepped" keys as opposed to all flush on the board. However, I like "steps" that are very close together, as opposed to farther apart. The distance between "steps" differs on different CBA makes and models. I also like looser bass buttons with less resistance rather than stiffer ones with more resistance. This is subjective, but unfortunately can be tough for accordion shoppers without a well-stocked dealer close by. For many these days, the expense of a trip might significantly reduce the purchase fund.

I personally find high speeds a challenge motor-skills-wise, and find I move faster on button instruments. But that's nothing to do with the relative capabilities of PA versus CBA, only my own limitations. I do play Irish/Scottish reels at dance speeds on both PA and CBA. I just notice it's a bit easier for me, on CBA.

 

[debra]

Things that slow you down on PA specifically are the distances. Playing something like A a d D A a d D ... (A one octave lower than a...) very fast is awkward on PA because the notes are very far apart, but on CBA it's not hard at all. On C system I would use 1 4 5 2 1 4 5 2 ...
The other difference is "touch", which is a combination of how deep a button or key is pressed and how much force is required. The spring that forces the key up needs to be just strong enough to keep the pallet closed when you push hard on the bellows but not stronger because that would needlessly require more force. I for instance tried a Pigini Sirius and Pigini Nova side by side and the difference in touch was noticeable (the Nova being lighter of course). I have two Bugari accordions, a 508/ARS/C and a 540/ARS/C and the 540 is noticeably lighter. My AKKO bayan is heavier. You can plsy very fast on it but it requires more effort.
I also have one CBA with a flat keyboard (a Hohner Artiste X S) and the buttons do not go down far on a flat keyboard so you can play easily and fast on it. Glissando is also easier on the flat keyboard, and you can slide in all directions (whereas on a stepped keyboard you can slide down but not up the steps).

 

[SteveBox]

I play PA and would like to be fast enough to sometimes play melody for contra dances, which on some tunes go as fast as 240 notes per minute (120 metronome). I'm quite sure I'll never be nearly that fast on PA, at least not while playing crisply and accurately.

Ed, Why do you say this? There may be good reasons for choosing to learn CBA, but I doubt making it possible for you to play contra dance tunes up to speed is one of them. All of the accordion players I know of who play for contra dances play piano accordions. I have yet to meet anyone else who plays a CBA as I do. I switched from PA to CBA for other reasons.

What is your contra dance playing experience so far? Why do you think you will never be good enough on the PA? I have been frustrated many times over the years with my ability to play fast and difficult tunes. But I persisted and eventually got much better. I am not discouraging you from switching to CBA, but doing so will be a big setback at first.

When I think of good contra dance accordionists, the first name that comes to mind is Laurie Andres, but there are many others. Laurie plays a small piano accordion and has released a number of recordings. Here is a video of him with a fiddle and guitar playing a couple of tunes. The first is "Road to California", but I am not sure about the second. Notice his technique, with the bouncy bellows action, and light on the bass.




Another thing to keep in mind is that you don't have to play all of those fast notes to contribute to a band. You can play a rhythm/harmony part with fewer notes. As an example, here is a piano accordionist playing with a fiddler. He starts out playing harmony and rhythm. He gradually transitions into playing melody, but you wouldn't have to. You can also try playing a more simplified outline of the melody.

 

[TomBR]

Lots of good points already.
Ed S - how much time investment in PA do you already have? As has been illustrated already, it's very possible to play fast dance tunes on PA. How far back will you go to restart on CBA?
At your level as a player do you have good PA keyboard technique? I think using time-honoured "good" fingering technique is far more important to progressing on PA than on CBA when thinking of single note tune playing. ("Good" fingering habits become more important on CBA for multi-note playing.)

The CBA keyboard is more compact, you have more notes under your hand which makes things easier. Less "flying about."

I would say that for a given investment of time, effort and aptitude most people will make faster progress on CBA than PA.
Good luck!
Tom

 

[SteveBox]

The CBA keyboard is more compact, you have more notes under your hand which makes things easier. Less "flying about."

If less "flying about" is a major concern, then consider a diatonic accordion. They are very appropriate for folk dance music, and with two different notes on each button (selected by the bellows direction), there is even less "flying about". However, there will be more "squeezing about" as you must reverse the bellows frequently.

 

[tcabot]

Are chromatic button accordions faster than piano accordions?​

Depend how hard you throw them...

 

[Walker]

Are chromatic button accordions faster than piano accordions?​

Depend how hard you throw them...

(sigh) so it's come to this... "how hard you throw them". Really? I despair.

Surely technique counts for something...

If the straps are in good condition a "hammer turn" throwing technique would be excellent...

Or perhaps some kind of accordion trebuchet.

 

[CC_PDX]

I know that it often looks easier when you see the same tune played on button vs PA. That striking difference in motion and visible effort is what started me thinking about switching teams from PA to some sort of button box after a year or so.

I know it can be done on a PA, but I felt too conspicuous with my fingers and wrists flying all over the keyboard and wanted in on that economy of motion, barely visible finger / wrist movement that comes from having 2+ octaves and entire scale shapes under your fingers. For the Irish / English / Scandinavian etc. trad and Contra, the diatonics are truly purpose-built for this--everything you need is under your fingers for maximum speed and efficiency (albeit in a subset of keys so you have to be willing to commit to a particular tradition). I estimate CBA adds a 10-20 % premium to this in terms of difficulty if going head to head on a tune in a diatonic's native key (i.e. where they don't have to move across rows or even at all), but I was willing to pay that premium to have a more versatile wholly chromatic option that lets me transpose at will.

When you add in the more compact form factor (for the same range), and you also have a different type of bellows movement (smaller, lighter for quick turns, but less gravity assist) which may translate to "faster" or maybe less visible effort.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

I don't know about CBAs bring faster than PAs. I once saw a demo in which a PA and a CBA were placed on the floor on their feet. The human called out, "On your marks!", and a few seconds later, fired a starter's pistol into the air.

Neither accordion moved.

But seriously, there are too many variables, as discussed above, to answer this question. As for aspects of PA vs. CBA other than speed, when taken all together, it comes out as a dead heat.

 

[dak]

When you add in the more compact form factor (for the same range), and you also have a different type of bellows movement (smaller, lighter for quick turns, but less gravity assist) which may translate to "faster" or maybe less visible effort.

The bass contains just as many reeds as a PA, the treble tends to contain more. Many CBAs are built on a 3-row arrangement of reed plates contrasted to the 2-row arrangement typical for piano accordions. That leads to 50% more reed blocks and a corresponding larger depth of the instrument. The bellows tends to have a larger cross section as a result, meaning less pressure for the same exerted force.

If you take a look at the bellows travel in this rendition of Oblivion, why, reversals are rare enough that one could imagine manually keeping track of every bellows reversal when editing the video in order to get a steady view of the left hand (spoiler: this actually was how the video was edited).

It gets really ridiculous when I am playing the free bass.

 

[Ed S]

I know that it often looks easier when you see the same tune played on button vs PA. That striking difference in motion and visible effort is what started me thinking about switching teams from PA to some sort of button box after a year or so.

I know it can be done on a PA, but I felt too conspicuous with my fingers and wrists flying all over the keyboard and wanted in on that economy of motion, barely visible finger / wrist movement that comes from having 2+ octaves and entire scale shapes under your fingers. For the Irish / English / Scandinavian etc. trad and Contra, the diatonics are truly purpose-built for this--everything you need is under your fingers for maximum speed and efficiency (albeit in a subset of keys so you have to be willing to commit to a particular tradition). I estimate CBA adds a 10-20 % premium to this in terms of difficulty if going head to head on a tune in a diatonic's native key (i.e. where they don't have to move across rows or even at all), but I was willing to pay that premium to have a more versatile wholly chromatic option that lets me transpose at will.

When you add in the more compact form factor (for the same range), and you also have a different type of bellows movement (smaller, lighter for quick turns, but less gravity assist) which may translate to "faster" or maybe less visible effort.

Thanks for writing! This is exactly my thinking, including being skittish about diatonics.
I read a 2021 post of yours about switching.
I guess that after 3 years of CBA, you haven't changed your mind about any of this?
I see you have a Roland FR-1xb. What do you think about using the FR-1xb as a first, trial CBA? Is the action fast? I may get into bad bellows habits, but I imagine can break them. I like being able to mute or use headphones for all the exercises I expect to need to play over and over.

 

[dak]

I know that it often looks easier when you see the same tune played on button vs PA. That striking difference in motion and visible effort is what started me thinking about switching teams from PA to some sort of button box after a year or so.

I know it can be done on a PA, but I felt too conspicuous with my fingers and wrists flying all over the keyboard and wanted in on that economy of motion, barely visible finger / wrist movement that comes from having 2+ octaves and entire scale shapes under your fingers.

What is convenient for bad players like myself is the ability to prepare large jumps after a long note by doing a suitable finger substitution and then poking around in the vicinity of your target until you identified your landing spot due to the crosshatches on some buttons, all while still playing the old note far away.

The piano accordion players in my voice group actually have to do a jump instead of being already there. Sort of like the hare and hedgehog fable.

 

[dak]

What do you think about using the FR-1xb as a first, trial CBA? Is the action fast?

That's the one thing you don't need to worry about with a Roland. No sticking valves, no suboptimal reed gaps, no extensive mechanics to be moved…

 

[SteveBox]

For all of the theoretical advantages of the CBA discussed here, the fact remains that in the world of Celtic music, very few play a CBA. For the Scottish, the choice is usually a PA, and most Irish accordionists play a diatonic, but a significant number play a PA. Exceptions do exist, but are hard to find. I play Celtic music on a CBA, and I often feel like I am blazing a new trail.

Here is another Scottish accordionist tearing up the keys on a PA. Based on this performance, it is hard to see any disadvantages to this instrument.




But look here. This is one of the few examples I have found of an Irish musician playing a CBA.
(You can tell it's Irish music because the accordion is green. )

 

[CC_PDX]

The bass contains just as many reeds as a PA, the treble tends to contain more. Many CBAs are built on a 3-row arrangement of reed plates contrasted to the 2-row arrangement typical for piano accordions.

Fair point—I was thinking more in terms of a compact 48 or 60 bass with fewer bass reed sets. The diatos often have just 8 bass buttons that are of limited use—many players seldom even use their LH in Irish trad. My 24 button Darwin is crazy light because it drops so many reeds and accompanying mechanism for the LH, bringing it down to the size and weight of a diatonic.

 

[CC_PDX]

For all of the theoretical advantages of the CBA discussed here, the fact remains that in the world of Celtic music, very few play a CBA. For the Scottish, the choice is usually a PA, and most Irish accordionists play a diatonic, but a significant number play a PA. Exceptions do exist, but are hard to find. I play Celtic music on a CBA, and I often feel like I am blazing a new trail.

That squares with my experience and I chalk it up to the massive inertia of multiple generations of tradition within the form. Fortunately, it has yet to be an issue—either people don’t know the difference and/or I’m producing what they are expecting to hear from a small wooden box thing. I’ve had multiple veteran players gush about how good (and authentic) it sounds. This shows that it is possible, but there are no guides so you have to rely on your own efforts to adapt your playing technique and sound to make it fit within the tradition (just like the successful PA players have done).