Tarilonte's sampled Pigini

[xocd]

Has anybody tried Eduardo Tarilonte's sampled Pigini?

Big Fish Audio - Accordions 2 - Single Concert Accordion - A virtual Pigini accordion from Eduardo Tarilonte's Accordions 2

A virtual Pigini accordion from Eduardo Tarilonte's Accordions 2

www.bigfishaudio.com

(The Pigini is part of a larger set of samples: Accordions 2)

In youtube I find demos and reviews by musicians that do not play accordion.



I am tempted to order it and see what happens (the Pigini sampled accordion costs $69).

I expect that it would run on a laptop connected to a controller (digital piano or Roland digital accordion).

I do not play my Roland (FR-3xb) because I cannot stand its sounds; I do like its weight . My hope is that this virtual accordion would be better than the Roland sounds.

Thanks!
xocd

 

[Airy]

If I remember correctly this library doesn’t work with accordion out of the box.
It is made for „real“ keyboards and uses the modulation wheel as bellows controller. But it can be re-configured to work with bellows - at least in the Kontakt (full) version together with the „Accordion 2“ complete version.

Maybe the separate single-instrument version uses a different software and for that I cannot make any assumptions.

There is already some discussion in the forum, but mostly with negative attitude towards or experience with software as sound source.

 

[JerryPH]

From the little that I heard that sounds like they sampled only the right hand and did nothing for the left hand. Great if you are a keyboardist, less if you are an accordionist.

 

[xocd]

From the little that I heard that sounds like they sampled only the right hand and did nothing for the left hand. Great if you are a keyboardist, less if you are an accordionist.

Good to know. Thanks.

 

[Ventura]

here is the other problem with accordion modeling/sampling

the people doing it cannot be convinced to do each reedset separately..
it takes too much time. to much post-production, too much memory
dedicated to the finalized wavetable

as you all know, the L, M, and H reedsets share quite a few footages in common,
and as they know, you can just choose one reed from the lowest to the highest pitch
for processing, then draw your 3 different octaves from those common reeds

indeed, they don't even sample draw and push reeds separately, because MIDI
has no way to differentiate this, though internally the rolands do, but then
they would require using an extention to the MIDI spec for the device, which
opens another can of worms..

indeed, they don't even sample/model the M+ or M- or L+ separately, not do they
allow the individual inconsistencies of tuning in a real accordion musette to be
faithfully recreated by allowing those different individual reeds to be output
independantly and interact (even though of course, without the airflow paths
in an acoustic ccordion, again this is not going to be faithfully recreated)

(note: the Boendorfer digital piano project did this and went beyond the MIDI spec
so that they could have a greater width to the "Delta" between softest/slowest
and most forceful, fastest attack on the notes, and how it would render the (note) data

this embarrassed Roland extremely when i proved they took the short cut,
in spite of their "SuperNatural" propoganda and (supposed) doctrine..
with existing technology, the only thing an accordion "sample" can really do
better than another is the subjective tonality, and that is a
matter for your ears personally to decide (or Mr. Mathis for those of you who can't)

To have an expectation that any "sampled" outboard MIDI controlled accordion sound
can be more responsive/expressive than the built in ones is unrealistic at best
given the limitations of MIDI, and again, what, there are 30 or so fully fledged
accordion wavetables accessable in the big rolands.. my God if you can't find
something you like in that bunch YOU SHOULD have NEVER BOUGHT one..
even the Ciao had famously 40 accordions available

work with what the instrument has and get good at playing it so that it sounds
real.. oh wait.. that applies to a Gola, an Accordiana, a Baile, or a Roland, doesn't it ?

 

[xocd]

here is the other problem with accordion modeling/sampling

the people doing it cannot be convinced to do each reedset separately..
it takes too much time. to much post-production, too much memory
dedicated to the finalized wavetable

as you all know, the L, M, and H reedsets share quite a few footages in common,
and as they know, you can just choose one reed from the lowest to the highest pitch
for processing, then draw your 3 different octaves from those common reeds

indeed, they don't even sample draw and push reeds separately, because MIDI
has no way to differentiate this, though internally the rolands do, but then
they would require using an extention to the MIDI spec for the device, which
opens another can of worms..

indeed, they don't even sample/model the M+ or M- or L+ separately, not do they
allow the individual inconsistencies of tuning in a real accordion musette to be
faithfully recreated by allowing those different individual reeds to be output
independantly and interact (even though of course, without the airflow paths
in an acoustic ccordion, again this is not going to be faithfully recreated)

(note: the Boendorfer digital piano project did this and went beyond the MIDI spec
so that they could have a greater width to the "Delta" between softest/slowest
and most forceful, fastest attack on the notes, and how it would render the (note) data

this embarrassed Roland extremely when i proved they took the short cut,
in spite of their "SuperNatural" propoganda and (supposed) doctrine..
with existing technology, the only thing an accordion "sample" can really do
better than another is the subjective tonality, and that is a
matter for your ears personally to decide (or Mr. Mathis for those of you who can't)

To have an expectation that any "sampled" outboard MIDI controlled accordion sound
can be more responsive/expressive than the built in ones is unrealistic at best
given the limitations of MIDI, and again, what, there are 30 or so fully fledged
accordion wavetables accessable in the big rolands.. my God if you can't find
something you like in that bunch YOU SHOULD have NEVER BOUGHT one..
even the Ciao had famously 40 accordions available

work with what the instrument has and get good at playing it so that it sounds
real.. oh wait.. that applies to a Gola, an Accordiana, a Baile, or a Roland, doesn't it ?

Ventura,

I am puzzled. You seem to be saying both that Roland did not do it right, and also that you cannot expect an external MIDI-controller gizmo to do it better. Am I misreading you? (BTW, my understanding is that Roland is not a sampler. I am not sure if one should use the word "wavetable" to refer to its internals.)

I would be overjoyed to find an external midi-controlled accordion emulator (based on samples, or physical simulation, or whatever) that does a realistic version of a single reed bank. I have not been able to convince my Roland to do that. I have not heard anybody on youtube playing a Roland with a realistic accordion sound; happy to be given a link to one.

xocd

 

[Ventura]

that's right

Roland did not do it right, they took the short cut,
and Sampling for MIDI control CANNOT do it right
because there is no way for MIDI to call for the "push" reedbank
one moment and the "Pull" reedbank the next, AND there is no-one
investing in the needed resources to legit model or sample
all 4 reedbanks, on the push, and then on the pull, and make
it work the same way as a real acoustic accordion from any
type of MIDI controller, accordion form or slab.

those of you calling for a realistic (MIDI) acoustic accordion
are asking for the impossible, and by extension disparaging
the sounds available in a Roland vs this phantom thing you ask for
is unfair

"a realistic version of a single reed bank" ?
that would give you a 12 bass accordion at best ?

 

[debra]

that's right

Roland did not do it right, they took the short cut,
and Sampling for MIDI control CANNOT do it right
because there is no way for MIDI to call for the "push" reedbank
one moment and the "Pull" reedbank the next, ...

I'd say the limitation that you cannot distinguish between pull and push in MIDI is really nothing to be worried about.
You know, since I retired from my day job I have started making arrangements for accordion ensemble and -orchestra.
For 188 (out of 215) arrangements I have made multi-track recordings to illustrate these arrangements,
using mostly my 4 accordions and bass accordion, and occasionally a "loaner" in for service and tuning.
in ALL of these recordings EVERYTHING (except for bellow shake) was recorded in fragments that are ALL PLAYED ON PULL.
Until now NOBODY appears to have noticed that in these recordings everything was played on pull only.
So when a new digital accordion comes on the market that has very nice and realistic accordion sound, but that does not distinguish in sound between pull and push, I would still happily buy it!

 

[Ventura]

excellent point that no-one has yet noticed

however, you have skills of discernment, and an understanding of compromise,
and could enjoy and use an authentic soundbank within the limitations
as long as it's tonality were accurate, and sampled from a brand you do
not detest

do those who had not noticed have that ? or will they be expecting
a digital/midi/sample to ACT the same as an Acoustic, the same
as all they acoustics they have played their entire lives

subtly different on pull than push.. richly interesting with their
slight inaccuracies of Musette relative tuning between individual pitches..
sometimes notably different L a-440 reed vs M a-440 reed etc.

a sampled accordion sound is so severely limited, and so far
beyond the expression capability of a MIDI controller it simply cannot
beat the Roland, WHICH HAS THE CAPACITY BUILT IN to allow an
individual to sonically alter that core sound quite dramatically, and
then control it

even if you could get a studio tech to do it, consider that Digital Piano
"sample" actually is every single individual 88 (notes) sampled 4 complete times at
4 different machine controlled levels of attack, and then controlled by software in the
device's rendering sound engine to seamlessly extrapolate between the 4 samples
based on your real time attack on the keys, which in some Stage Digitals
actually uses a Grand Piano action

now remind me how different the response of a Reed that starts gently with
a whisper of air, and the same reed started with a full pressure pull ?
remind me the difference in time factor for that reed to come up to pitch ?
no-one will notice ?

you would notice

the threads keep saying "we want a true accordion sound" using a roland
as controller and i am saying the only way to get that is to dive in to the Roland
until you find it, hone it as near to perfection as the device will allow,
then smile and enjoy it and play it

i am pretty confident you personally will have success in this once you find one
at the right price to justify your experiment

just the other day someone complained bitterly their FR3x had no decent sounds,
but in fact the FR3 has several near perfectly tweaked and clean sounding French
accordion shifts in the core factory set, as well as a full bank obviously modeled
from a hub-cap Scandalli as well as one set from an Excelsior.. the tonality
is obvious.. it is delightful and eminently usable as is.. except for the mass
hysteria that all Roland owners must now bitterly disparage their instruments
in public forums

there is no-one on earth that has held Roland Corp's feet to the fire more
harshly and consistently than i, but it seems i am also now their biggest defender ?
the lonely voice in the wilderness ?

all Digital instruments that simulate directly their acoustic counterparts
are a compromise, so appreciate them for what they ARE and work
to get the MOST out of them

Pro players used the EWI from AKAI (wind instrument controller) on
countless Gigs for decades, then Yamaha came out with one too, and really
these were the ground-breakers that lead to our Bellows control simulation
devices.. those Musicians were damn glad to have them and use them
and get the most out of them

why can't we ?

 

[xocd]

Ventura argues that a convincing external midi-controlled accordion emulator is impossible. Arguments for impossibility are intrinsically hard. I am not convinced.

One argument of plausibility is Modart's Pianoteq. Pianoteq is a physical simulation; there are no samples; and it takes very little memory. It's perfect for practicing with headphones. It sounds OK through the small speakers that I have near by MIDI keyboard (weighted keys, etc.) If one can emulate a piano, I think an accordion emulator that produces a decent sound should be possible.

Modartt: Pianoteq overview

www.modartt.com

I do not like the sounds from my Roland. I'm entitled to my opinion. I don't think the Roland accordion has feelings that I can hurt.

(Still waiting for a youtube link to a Roland producing a realistic accordion sound.)

xocd

 

[Alan Sharkis]

excellent point that no-one has yet noticed

however, you have skills of discernment, and an understanding of compromise,
and could enjoy and use an authentic soundbank within the limitations
as long as it's tonality were accurate, and sampled from a brand you do
not detest

do those who had not noticed have that ? or will they be expecting
a digital/midi/sample to ACT the same as an Acoustic, the same
as all they acoustics they have played their entire lives

subtly different on pull than push.. richly interesting with their
slight inaccuracies of Musette relative tuning between individual pitches..
sometimes notably different L a-440 reed vs M a-440 reed etc.

a sampled accordion sound is so severely limited, and so far
beyond the expression capability of a MIDI controller it simply cannot
beat the Roland, WHICH HAS THE CAPACITY BUILT IN to allow an
individual to sonically alter that core sound quite dramatically, and
then control it

even if you could get a studio tech to do it, consider that Digital Piano
"sample" actually is every single individual 88 (notes) sampled 4 complete times at
4 different machine controlled levels of attack, and then controlled by software in the
device's rendering sound engine to seamlessly extrapolate between the 4 samples
based on your real time attack on the keys, which in some Stage Digitals
actually uses a Grand Piano action

now remind me how different the response of a Reed that starts gently with
a whisper of air, and the same reed started with a full pressure pull ?
remind me the difference in time factor for that reed to come up to pitch ?
no-one will notice ?

you would notice

the threads keep saying "we want a true accordion sound" using a roland
as controller and i am saying the only way to get that is to dive in to the Roland
until you find it, hone it as near to perfection as the device will allow,
then smile and enjoy it and play it

i am pretty confident you personally will have success in this once you find one
at the right price to justify your experiment

just the other day someone complained bitterly their FR3x had no decent sounds,
but in fact the FR3 has several near perfectly tweaked and clean sounding French
accordion shifts in the core factory set, as well as a full bank obviously modeled
from a hub-cap Scandalli as well as one set from an Excelsior.. the tonality
is obvious.. it is delightful and eminently usable as is.. except for the mass
hysteria that all Roland owners must now bitterly disparage their instruments
in public forums

there is no-one on earth that has held Roland Corp's feet to the fire more
harshly and consistently than i, but it seems i am also now their biggest defender ?
the lonely voice in the wilderness ?

all Digital instruments that simulate directly their acoustic counterparts
are a compromise, so appreciate them for what they ARE and work
to get the MOST out of them

Pro players used the EWI from AKAI (wind instrument controller) on
countless Gigs for decades, then Yamaha came out with one too, and really
these were the ground-breakers that lead to our Bellows control simulation
devices.. those Musicians were damn glad to have them and use them
and get the most out of them

why can't we ?

Did you ever ask any of those musicians what about the EWI or similar devices they didn’t like? I would suspect that if you did you’d get an earful. I also suspect that it’s part of human nature to complain about some aspect or another of our possessions.

 

[Ventura]

you are right.. we Humans complain

i complained about the FR8 and how i felt about the stepper motor
bellows system

did i buy one anyhow ?

would i ?

maybe, when one reaches $1000 with a blown motor so i can take it apart
and see if i can't eliminate the motor completely from the circuits and return
the bellows to an fr7 equivalent more or less

 

[Pbraido]

you are right.. we Humans complain

i complained about the FR8 and how i felt about the stepper motor
bellows system

did i buy one anyhow ?

would i ?

maybe, when one reaches $1000 with a blown motor so i can take it apart
and see if i can't eliminate the motor completely from the circuits and return
the bellows to an fr7 equivalent more or less

If you own a FR8X you don’t have to use the bellows stepper motor system you can disengage it in the menu and use it as the original FR7 was or as the FR7x is with a constant opening of air through the bellows

 

[debra]

Did you ever ask any of those musicians what about the EWI or similar devices they didn’t like? I would suspect that if you did you’d get an earful. I also suspect that it’s part of human nature to complain about some aspect or another of our possessions.

Yes, complaining appears to be a part of human nature...
My acoustic accordions are certainly not without flaws, and if the sound could be sampled and then controlled like the sound in a Roland there is certainly potential to have a sound that it closer to perfect. But it's not easy: L and M reeds (at the same frequency) have a different sound because the size of the resonance chambers is different. so they should be sampled separately. Pull and push have a different sound because among other things the inside valve that opens on push has a different effect on the sound than the outside valve that opens on pull (and opens into "open air", not inside the resonance chamber. Push is liked a bit less than pull, which is also why I record everything on pull only. Each note resonates differently because of a different (mis)match between the resonance chamber size and the reed's frequency. The voicing between different reeds is different... and as a result of these aspects the volume of each sampled note should be normalized. There are so many sources of complaints about acoustic accordions... and for the highest-end accordions it is best to spend a few days at the factory to have them adjust small things until you are completely happy with the sound...
If everything could be sampled and then controlled like a Roland... I could easily become enthusiastic about an electronic accordion (that never needs tuning)!

 

[John M]

. . . have not been able to convince my Roland to do that. I have not heard anybody on youtube playing a Roland with a realistic accordion sound . . . .

Have you tried "fine tuning" your Roland, to get the sound/tone you want, with the options available? In addition to all the the reed choices, you can adjust the individual volume of each reed of the treble keyboard. Also, there is a 4 band equalizer that allows you to adjust the volume of each of 4 frequencies (the choice of the 4 different frequencies is yours) by +/- 15 dB. Finally,, there is a volume Level (0-127) across all the frequencies of the equalizer.

There is an individual volume adjustment of each Bass & Chord reed of the left hand registers.

Bellows expression is excellent with a Resistance adjustment of -64 to +64. There are also 5 different dynamic bellows curves that you can choose from..

 

[xocd]

Have you tried "fine tuning" your Roland, to get the sound/tone you want, with the options available? In addition to all the the reed choices, you can adjust the individual volume of each reed of the treble keyboard. Also, there is a 4 band equalizer that allows you to adjust the volume of each of 4 frequencies (the choice of the 4 different frequencies is yours) by +/- 15 dB. Finally,, there is a volume Level (0-127) across all the frequencies of the equalizer.

There is an individual volume adjustment of each Bass & Chord reed of the left hand registers.

Bellows expression is excellent with a Resistance adjustment of -64 to +64. There are also 5 different dynamic bellows curves that you can choose from..

The basic timbre does not work for me. I have tried without success. I don't believe any tweaking would make it sound close to a real accordion.

 

[dak]

The basic timbre does not work for me. I have tried without success. I don't believe any tweaking would make it sound close to a real accordion.

Have you tried using external speakers? I think that should help with sounding more like, well, an accordion recorded fairly well. Just not from the player's vantage point. In my estimate, the audience will typically experience the least difference/downsides to digital accordions, so it falls to the performer to develop a rapport with the instrument and setup. Fun in playing for your own enjoyment and carrying a performance are not independent, but you can focus separately to some degree explicitly on making the latter work out (and figure out what part of working on that may be fun to yourself). Which is what distinguishes professionals from amateurs. Personally, I am just invested in being an amateur, making things work for my own gratification rather than that of others.

 

[Tom]

“A poor carpenter blames his tools.”

 

[Ventura]

If you own a FR8X you don’t have to use the bellows stepper motor system you can disengage it in the menu and use it as the original FR7 was or as the FR7x is with a constant opening of air through the bellows

hey PB,

thanks for this info.. i did not know that

the motor still has the job, i believe, of holding the bellows closed
when powered down, so some modifications would still be desirable
(to me) as well as eliminating the motor/switcher draw on the battery
absolutely by finding and cutting it's power supply trace. That would be
my theoretical preferred objective,

 

[Ventura]

“A poor carpenter blames his tools.”

g'morning Tom,

this point lies behind everything really, because as a Pro or even
as a fanatic it is always an ultimate goal to have the right tool
for the right job, and then hone our ability to use our tools
to the fullest

so it goes from crafting patches on a FR4x that fit a specific song
to perfection, through owning an arsenal of accordions that are
voiced and tweaked for certain types of music, and onto experimenting
with different ways to apply Wax to a reedblock

(i have purchased a plastic welding gun, and also a particular design of
battery operated Glue gun, both of which i intend to attempt to modify into
delivering, with pinpoint accuracy, reed-wax.)