Questions on audio set up

[breezybellows]

Some questions on the audio set up for folks who are more familiar with things.

I'm playing some sounds that I programmed and some that were pre loaded. I've been playing this with my Bose s1 pro external speakers over the last month. I've been tweaking the knobs to get sounds that I like. I can't help but notice that the sound quality through the Zoom H6 audio interface (listened via the headphone output I'm the interface) sounds underwhelming compared to what I hear through the external speakers. I used nice headphones (DT 770 pro). I'm connecting the audio interface to my phone's camera to use as an external audio source. I'm not sure if this will sound any better with the Focusrite Scarlett interface. Or maybe if I record directly to the H6 interface, it could sound better? I should try that someday.

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

Which recording configuration are you using on the H6?. I have one and record all my pop/rock band gigs with it, with a very good result

 

[JerryPH]

At our level, meaning, we are not experienced sound engineers, but we know what we like to hear, we do a lot of testing and playing and finally decide on a sound we like. So, we learn that doing different things results in different sound quality.

Listening through the speakers of the digital accordion has a sound. Hearing the output from the analog outputs to an audio interface will have a different sound. It should, we are listening to close to the same sound but through different speakers (ok, I'll state the obvious, different speakers will make the same source input sound different, along with the fact that we are using different amps, wires, EQ settings that also have a say about what it comes out as).

Even listening to the same output through different audio interfaces will sound different, though the same amp/speakers/EQ settings are used.

Not all audio interfaces are equal. Good quality preamps in an audio interface will sound better than lower end preamps, but let's be honest here... at OUR level, you will need to really do some hard testing to hear those differences. With y eqiopment, I have... and I can hear the differences between recordings made on my Touchmix-8, Mackie 1640i and Zoom F4 and camera preamps and I have preferences and know what the quality of sound will come out from each.

Let's toss in another level... different people will like different sound setups. What I like from a tool may or may not be what another finds appealing.

Now... comparing recordings made on an audio device, then compared to the sound from direct playing or external speakers and listening to those results? A true case of apples and oranges. It's like saying the sound of my 2025 Cadillac doesn't sound like my 1970 50-foot big block speedboat... yeah, it's that much of a difference. Both have COMPLETELY different purposes/end goals. Similar things can be said if I am comparing what I hear through headphones vs the speakers on the digital accordion speakers vs your stereo speakers. Three completely different worlds with different final results.

Expecting it to sound the same is like expecting a $50 accordion to sound like a $50,000 one in side-by-side comparisons.

So, how to get the best sound? That one is a tough cookie to crack, but getting the highest QUALITY of sound is easy:
- record by wire directly out from the source
- capture using a high quality audio interface with GREAT preamps
- capture sound at the highest quality the device can capture (96kHz or 192 kHz)
- capture in the highest quality file (a lossless format like WAV).
This would be a good start. Then comes all the other factors... one of which is the human side, which can easily make or break any recording, no matter how well that is captured.

I could write a book about it (others have... lol), but I'll stop here.

 

[breezybellows]

Which recording configuration are you using on the H6?. I have one and record all my pop/rock band gigs with it, with a very good result

What is a recording configuration? I use my H6 as a audio interface and connect it directly to my phone. I choose the H6 as the external microphone source in my Phone's camera while I record the video.

 

[breezybellows]

At our level, meaning, we are not experienced sound engineers, but we know what we like to hear, we do a lot of testing and playing and finally decide on a sound we like. So, we learn that doing different things results in different sound quality.

Listening through the speakers of the digital accordion has a sound. Hearing the output from the analog outputs to an audio interface will have a different sound. It should, we are listening to close to the same sound but through different speakers (ok, I'll state the obvious, different speakers will make the same source input sound different, along with the fact that we are using different amps, wires, EQ settings that also have a say about what it comes out as).

Even listening to the same output through different audio interfaces will sound different, though the same amp/speakers/EQ settings are used.

Not all audio interfaces are equal. Good quality preamps in an audio interface will sound better than lower end preamps, but let's be honest here... at OUR level, you will need to really do some hard testing to hear those differences. With y eqiopment, I have... and I can hear the differences between recordings made on my Touchmix-8, Mackie 1640i and Zoom F4 and camera preamps and I have preferences and know what the quality of sound will come out from each.

Let's toss in another level... different people will like different sound setups. What I like from a tool may or may not be what another finds appealing.

Now... comparing recordings made on an audio device, then compared to the sound from direct playing or external speakers and listening to those results? A true case of apples and oranges. It's like saying the sound of my 2025 Cadillac doesn't sound like my 1970 50-foot big block speedboat... yeah, it's that much of a difference. Both have COMPLETELY different purposes/end goals. Similar things can be said if I am comparing what I hear through headphones vs the speakers on the digital accordion speakers vs your stereo speakers. Three completely different worlds with different final results.

Expecting it to sound the same is like expecting a $50 accordion to sound like a $50,000 one in side-by-side comparisons.

So, how to get the best sound? That one is a tough cookie to crack, but getting the highest QUALITY of sound is easy:
- record by wire directly out from the source
- capture using a high quality audio interface with GREAT preamps
- capture sound at the highest quality the device can capture (96kHz or 192 kHz)
- capture in the highest quality file (a lossless format like WAV).
This would be a good start. Then comes all the other factors... one of which is the human side, which can easily make or break any recording, no matter how well that is captured.

I could write a book about it (others have... lol), but I'll stop here.

I did think about all these permutations and my head starts to hurt.

 

[JerryPH]

I did think about all these permutations and my head starts to hurt.

But now you are closer to understanding why they all sound a bit different.

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

What is a recording configuration? I use my H6 as a audio interface and connect it directly to my phone. I choose the H6 as the external microphone source in my Phone's camera while I record the video.

OK, that may explain it. Because your phone is probably lowering the quality. I would just use the H6 as a recorder, using its local storage (SD card). That way you can select for example 96kHz, 24bit stereo recording. Then edit the video to replace the audio track with the one from the recorder. Basically you are recording video with the phone and audio with the recorder and then joining them. That should give you better audio quality

 

[JerryPH]

A lot depends on the final use, but using an external recorder is always going to sound better than sending it to a phone... and a LOT better than using the cellphone mic to capture the sound.

I think we touched on that before. :


One can also go from the external audio capturing device and push that out to the phone... there is a little quality loss, but for a low quality file, it's acceptable... that way no synching is required.



For me (and me alone... lol), there is NO REASON in existence that I would make a public recording on a digital instrument and pump the music through any analog mic. If it has a L/R output, use that, send it to an external recorder and work with a CLEAN FILE (there is ONE exception... Lumix makes an XLR adapter that can send 32-bit floating file data to the camera's storage, but that works on currently only 2 cameras, thats the only time I would record straight to camera, but again, the outputs would be connected straight to the XLR inputs... ZERO possibility of external noises entering the file!).

If for no other reason other than you won't get chihuahua barks in your videos... lol.

 

[debra]

What is a recording configuration? I use my H6 as a audio interface and connect it directly to my phone. I choose the H6 as the external microphone source in my Phone's camera while I record the video.

That's still a bad idea. You should record the audio on the H6 and the video on the phone, and then bring the two together on the computer: the audio recording from the H6 and the video minus audio from the phone. This way you can get a good video with good sound. A "simple" computer program like iMovie will do the trick.

 

[breezybellows]

That's still a bad idea. You should record the audio on the H6 and the video on the phone, and then bring the two together on the computer: the audio recording from the H6 and the video minus audio from the phone. This way you can get a good video with good sound. A "simple" computer program like iMovie will do the trick.

I'd like to understand why its a bad idea. Why won't the camera use the external sound signal as is?

 

[JerryPH]

Yes but what format does it record that sound in? What quality level and bit rate? Likely nowhere near the quality of the h6. That is likely what Paul means.

I mean, I do it, too just not on anything that I would want to share with the public. I also send mic output directly in to my video camera, it is a lower quality sound for sure.

 

[KeysFla]

Some questions on the audio set up for folks who are more familiar with things.

I'm playing some sounds that I programmed and some that were pre loaded. I've been playing this with my Bose s1 pro external speakers over the last month. I've been tweaking the knobs to get sounds that I like. I can't help but notice that the sound quality through the Zoom H6 audio interface (listened via the headphone output I'm the interface) sounds underwhelming compared to what I hear through the external speakers. I used nice headphones (DT 770 pro). I'm connecting the audio interface to my phone's camera to use as an external audio source. I'm not sure if this will sound any better with the Focusrite Scarlett interface. Or maybe if I record directly to the H6 interface, it could sound better? I should try that someday.

We tend to over spend on headphones. Go with a studio set with flat response (20-20k hz frequency response is what I use). If you get a good sound in the headphones, the speaker will be amazing. I do not think we want to hear that booming bass.

 

[kep]

Yes but what format does it record that sound in? What quality level and bit rate? Likely nowhere near the quality of the h6. That is likely what Paul means.

I mean, I do it, too just not on anything that I would want to share with the public. I also send mic output directly in to my video camera, it is a lower quality sound for sure.

From a FB discussion with Luigi Bruti on the matter:

"Audio Recorder is stored at 32bit floating and 48 KHz" (as .WAV)
I doubt one can get higher quality than that on any external equipment.

 

[breezybellows]

Yes but what format does it record that sound in? What quality level and bit rate? Likely nowhere near the quality of the h6. That is likely what Paul means.

I mean, I do it, too just not on anything that I would want to share with the public. I also send mic output directly in to my video camera, it is a lower quality sound for sure.

In the end are we not limited by what compression YouTube does? Does YouTube keep the raw video file? I use power director to crop the videos. I don't know what that does to the audio. The final output format of the video is mp4

 

[debra]

From a FB discussion with Luigi Bruti on the matter:

"Audio Recorder is stored at 32bit floating and 48 KHz" (as .WAV)
I doubt one can get higher quality than that on any external equipment.

My Tascam DR-40X records at 96kHz/24bit and that's about the highest you can get.

 

[debra]

I'd like to understand why its a bad idea. Why won't the camera use the external sound signal as is?

In a phone everything is a compromise. It has do offer most of what a computer does, take good pictures and video and sound and do everything with very low power, and with severely dumbed down interfaces so everyone can use it.
A device like the H6 that does just one thing (record sound) will have better hardware to do that one thing. And it can do even better with higher quality external microphones.
There is just one drawback on recording audio and video separately: a slight difference in calibration can make the synchronization between audio and video go off to the extent that you can notice it after recording say half an hour in one stretch. But for individual songs it's not a problem.

 

[dak]

A lot depends on the final use, but using an external recorder is always going to sound better than sending it to a phone...

Nope. Iff you use the external recorder as sound interface and record to your video's audio track with the same sample frequency and bit depth in a non-lossy codec, the result is going to be completely indistinguishable. That is the wonder of digital.

The question is whether your recording program makes it transparent and easy enough to fulfill all those conditions. Working with the H6 as purely external recorder and then joining tracks in a video editor is likely making it easier to defer moving to a compressed audio format (if at all) after you've done all the editing you want, like doing loudness normalization and any frequency and balance adjustments. And downmixing, in case you are working with more than 2 mics.

 

[dak]

There is just one drawback on recording audio and video separately: a slight difference in calibration can make the synchronization between audio and video go off to the extent that you can notice it after recording say half an hour in one stretch. But for individual songs it's not a problem.

When my video editor Shotcut synchronizes a video (using the video's own lower-quality audio track as reference) to an external recorded audio track, you can tell it to do the matching including a speed adjustment. A window of 0.1% tends to be sufficient to capture any such difference.

 

[JerryPH]

In the end are we not limited by what compression YouTube does? Does YouTube keep the raw video file? I use power director to crop the videos. I don't know what that does to the audio. The final output format of the video is mp4

Thats a good question.
Yes and no. First YouTube will ALWAYS futz with the files because they make multiple resolutions/versions... but there are 2 kinds of compression in the discussion here... file compression and audio compression.

File compression happens when they make lower qualities of the files for the people that don't support the maximum resolution of the file size, ie: I upload a 4K file, YT makes multiple copies at different resolutions... but you may not have a 4K monitor and video card that supports this... so you can choose (or they choose for you), a lower resolution file like 1440P, 1080P,720P, etc.

Me, personally, I don't care too much about what YT does to the resolution. People will more watch a lower quality video with good audio than an excellent quality video with crap audio. Nothing makes me hit the "stop" button faster than that, and YT themselves state the same thing in their stats and other posts.

Also, yes, the original file that you upload is going to be the highest resolution video that will be available on YT.

What gets to me is the AUDIO compression and more importantly, what YT does to my file to lower the volume because I exceed the specifications that they demand. The compression thing... it is possible to get around that (see link below), but it is not possible to avoid YT screwing around with your audio, IF YOU DON'T FOLLOW THEIR RULE.

Their reference is-14db LUFS. They do that so that their commercials will ALWAYS be louder than anything else. If a file is louder, they screw with the audio during the processing portion after uploading and normalize it. If its under -14 (file is too quiet), they do nothing, but your video is possibly quieter and untouched, but too quiet is also not ideal.

There are tools out there that show your LUFS values, output your files to volume levels no more than-14 LUFS... simple. I shoot for something between -10 and -13 LUFS more and more in my videos.

So how do I know YT is screwing with my audio? Right click any of your videos and select "stats for nerds". Search for the normalization section and view the last number to the right. If that number is anything under 0, YT screwed with your file. If it is over 0, your audio is not touched. If your number is too positive like perhaps a 6 ot 10, your file is 5-10db too quiet. Thats a big difference.

So... to clarify when I said yes and no.
Yes, file resolution is played with on every file... except the original file (thats the "no").
Yes, the audio resolution is played with on every file... that is over -14db LUFS.
Yes there is a way to disable audio compression on YouTube.

So, keep the file at or below -14 LUFS and it isn't touched, on your original file... as long as you have YT's compression turned off.

 

[dak]

So... to clarify when I said yes and no.
Yes, file resolution is played with on every file... except the original file (thats the "no").
Yes, the audio resolution is played with on every file... that is over -14db LUFS.
Yes there is a way to disable audio compression on YouTube.

You are conflating two things here: volume compression (which is "fixed" by adjusting the volume) and lossy content compression. The latter is akin to JPEG compression with images: depending on the compression ratio, you save a lot of file size (or in this case, bandwidth) at the cost of audible artifacts. In my experience, MP3 was rather unhappy with accordion sounds and tended to mess up single-instrument tremolo sounds particularly badly unless using rather high bitrates.

IIRC, Youtube currently employs the Opus audio codec for its delivery. That does not suffer a similar aversion to accordion sounds as MP3 did. You would imagine that using the Opus codec for uploading video to Youtube will then let you be in control of the quality of the end result, but I think Youtube reencodes at their preferred quality levels anyway.

So your best bet just is to upload with a quality that is good enough that the end result is only significantly affected by Youtube's own quality compromises.