Turks Fruit -- Soundcheck
#1
<URL url="https://youtu.be/9DEA2cGhGo0">https://youtu.be/9DEA2cGhGo0</URL>

To save myself work, I'll just copy the blurb from the video itself:

This is a "sound check" for Paul de Bra's Turks Fruit arrangement (the original upload played by him available at <URL url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lndT8Mbvf0">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lndT8Mbvf0</URL> ). This version is more or less showing registration and recording options I am gravitating towards. This is not a finished product: I warned Paul, I'd take about half a year before getting this playable, and it's been little more than month I have been working on this I think.

I've been recording a bit and pulling my hair a lot, and stipulating that I want to give a video rather than a carefully edited audio track (which would likely come together sooner), this is likely as good as it gets this weekend. Particularly since I cannot even read the score any more with the light shining in my eyes.

And maybe I'll throw out all of the registration for recording again since I can manipulate the balance via microphone arrangement and don't need to revert to registrations that are very, very fragile to record. But live this is likely what I'll be ending up with.

Just a different perspective, though not yet a good one.
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#2
A very good result after such short time. It is humbling to see how difficult this actually is. It sounds so simple... But I already know from the girl who tried to play this at her final exam in music school that it is really difficult. (I have played it so often, also in public, that I can just dream it...)
I don't know why you start the second half so low (an octave lower than indicated). You certainly have enough high notes to reach everything.
As you have the MIII bass section you can actually avoid needing the chords in measures 23 and 24. The whole section in tutti register has that register just to mask that the chord you need at the start of measure 23 cannot be played on Stradella bass. And there is no time to turn on a convertor. But with MIII you can just play that G-A and then F#-A and then F-A on MIII (while holding the D base note in the Stradella part). I have done that on my Morino Artiste. It is an excellent point to show off why having MIII instead of convertor is not a bad idea after all.
Paul De Bra (not Debra...)
http://www.de-bra.nl
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#3
<QUOTE author="debra" post_id="55560" time="1519031406" user_id="605"><s>
debra post_id=55560 time=1519031406 user_id=605 Wrote:A very good result after such short time. It is humbling to see how difficult this actually is. It sounds so simple... But I already know from the girl who tried to play this at her final exam in music school that it is really difficult. (I have played it so often, also in public, that I can just dream it...)
I don't know why you start the second half so low (an octave lower than indicated). You certainly have enough high notes to reach everything.
It's the instrument. Its MMM sounds best outside of the violin clef system: it's great above, it's great below. It's so-so in the main range, and worse so when recording. You can improve it (I do so at the start and when changing from MMM 8vb to LMMM 8va) by choking off the tremolo slider resulting in some sort of chorus effect, but again that's quite better live than when recording so I'll likely forego this approach. I mean, one can just add a chorus effect with software afterwards and bypass the mic altogether if one wants it.

At any rate, briefly having listened to the original harmonica version I thought you used MMM here for some sort of Tutti effect and since I have the low range here and MMM sounds better at that range, I took to that. It does use lots of air and masks the bass (so I pull in another chord reed so that at least the harmonies stay intact). So I'm undecided about whether I'll stick with it. It definitely does not work with my other instruments (where the MM at that pitch just sounds out of place). Basically with the other instruments I stick closer with your proposed registration.
<QUOTE><s>
Quote:As you have the MIII bass section you can actually avoid needing the chords in measures 23 and 24. The whole section in tutti register has that register just to mask that the chord you need at the start of measure 23 cannot be played on Stradella bass.
I'll take a look, but to be honest: my principal reaction here is more of a "if it's not on the Stradella, why bother?" kind. Basically just plug something in that has one note too few or too many.

Do you have a reference score that you based your version on?
<QUOTE><s>
Quote:And there is no time to turn on a convertor. But with MIII you can just play that G-A and then F#-A and then F-A on MIII (while holding the D base note in the Stradella part). I have done that on my Morino Artiste. It is an excellent point to show off why having MIII instead of convertor is not a bad idea after all.
I'm actually also doing versions with instruments without MIII (and will look into seeing whether I can make something work with the arranger, but that will require a much more thorough analysis of the original to be good).

At the current point of time I'm using this arrangement more like an original score rather than an arrangement and thus am more focused on getting the most of it as it is rather than trying to mirror what happens in the harmonica version. It's obvious that this does not really match the approach of its genesis...
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#4
<QUOTE author="Geronimo" post_id="55561" time="1519034654" user_id="2623"><s>
Geronimo post_id=55561 time=1519034654 user_id=2623 Wrote:...
Do you have a reference score that you based your version on?
...

No reference score. My version was made by ear, selecting what I thought would sound good (or ok) on the accordion. The Toots Thielemans - Rogier van Otterlo version has many more things that sounded great when Toots played it but might not be so great on accordion.
Paul De Bra (not Debra...)
http://www.de-bra.nl
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#5
<QUOTE author="Geronimo" post_id="55561" time="1519034654" user_id="2623"><s>
Geronimo post_id=55561 time=1519034654 user_id=2623 Wrote:<QUOTE author="debra" post_id="55560" time="1519031406" user_id="605"><s>
debra post_id=55560 time=1519031406 user_id=605 Wrote:As you have the MIII bass section you can actually avoid needing the chords in measures 23 and 24. The whole section in tutti register has that register just to mask that the chord you need at the start of measure 23 cannot be played on Stradella bass.
I'll take a look, but to be honest: my principal reaction here is more of a "if it's not on the Stradella, why bother?" kind. Basically just plug something in that has one note too few or too many.
<QUOTE><s>
Quote:And there is no time to turn on a convertor. But with MIII you can just play that G-A and then F#-A and then F-A on MIII (while holding the D base note in the Stradella part). I have done that on my Morino Artiste. It is an excellent point to show off why having MIII instead of convertor is not a bad idea after all.
Ok, so I think this works fine just with D+c, D+d7, D+f. Yes, the A arrives only with the last chord, but that's fine as resolution.

It's unpleasant to jump from E♭+e♭7 to D+c (when it was just D alone, I used the counterbass D as a trampoline to get to the real one), but I think one can still fudge this with the counterbass. But musically I don't see a problem, at least not with my octave break.
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#6
<QUOTE author="Geronimo" post_id="55564" time="1519039539" user_id="2623"><s>
Geronimo post_id=55564 time=1519039539 user_id=2623 Wrote:<QUOTE author="debra" post_id="55560" time="1519031406" user_id="605"><s>
debra post_id=55560 time=1519031406 user_id=605 Wrote:As you have the MIII bass section you can actually avoid needing the chords in measures 23 and 24. The whole section in tutti register has that register just to mask that the chord you need at the start of measure 23 cannot be played on Stradella bass.
Ok, so I think this works fine just with D+c, D+d7, D+f. Yes, the A arrives only with the last chord, but that's fine as resolution.
Another slightly different option is D+c, D+adim, D+f. The difference is that A arrives already at the second chord. D+adim is the same as D+d+d7 but possibly easier to finger (on my main instrument, adim is actually in the D row so it's a more obvious option). Not yet decided which option I prefer.
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#7
The whole idea behind the "tutti" section is that the right hand chord overpower the bass section enough that you don't actually notice that there is a half-measure (23) that has no chord in the bass part, only in the right hand. I think that works well enough. But if you can play the notes on MIII... why not...
Paul De Bra (not Debra...)
http://www.de-bra.nl
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#8
<QUOTE author="debra" post_id="55568" time="1519046990" user_id="605"><s>
debra post_id=55568 time=1519046990 user_id=605 Wrote:The whole idea behind the "tutti" section is that the right hand chord overpower the bass section enough that you don't actually notice that there is a half-measure (23) that has no chord in the bass part, only in the right hand. I think that works well enough. But if you can play the notes on MIII... why not...
No, I really mean D (bass note) and c (chord) in the Stradella on that half-measure. It's actually not as bad a jump from E♭+e♭7 as I feared. The right hand (which never changed registers to Master) just plays C5 in that measure and sticks with it. That takes quite a bit of sound variation out of "Dat mistige rooie beest" and I like that because it better matches a "combo" character. It also resonates well with registering thinly: single bass reed, single chord reed, much of the time single treble reed. Keeps stuff transparent. The missing "A" in the chord is a fifth and not really of functional importance as long as D is in the bass. There is a reason it's left out in the seventh and diminished chords.

I mean, it's mean telling you to try changes in something that has become so ingrained, but at least on my main instrument, this works out better for me.
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#9
<QUOTE author="Geronimo" post_id="55570" time="1519050383" user_id="2623"><s>
Geronimo post_id=55570 time=1519050383 user_id=2623 Wrote:No, I really mean D (bass note) and c (chord) in the Stradella on that half-measure. It's actually not as bad a jump from E♭+e♭7 as I feared. The right hand (which never changed registers to Master) just plays C5 in that measure and sticks with it. That takes quite a bit of sound variation out of "Dat mistige rooie beest" and I like that because it better matches a "combo" character. It also resonates well with registering thinly: single bass reed, single chord reed, much of the time single treble reed. Keeps stuff transparent. The missing "A" in the chord is a fifth and not really of functional importance as long as D is in the bass. There is a reason it's left out in the seventh and diminished chords.
Sort of embarrassing, but I noticed only in bed tonight that D+c does not just give Dsus4add7 but actually Dsus4add79. So I checked this morning. Not a problem (the character is really that of a sus4 and not of a sus2). A mechanical problem is the version with adim on a normal Stradella (with adim in the A row): holding D while going c - adim - dm+f with the other fingers is too much of a stretch. Though, sigh, dm is redundant. But I don't think that changes much. adim could be replaced by d+d7, too, if the fifth is desired. So I have a few other variants to try.

On all of the instruments I tried, the cadence works well enough on the first chord. Mostly it sounds a bit better with A added already in the second chord. Funnily, on the Excelsior the last step doesn't work at all in the low bass register since then the octave break in the chord reeds between F and F♯ interferes.
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#10
<QUOTE author="Geronimo" post_id="55580" time="1519113841" user_id="2623"><s>
Geronimo post_id=55580 time=1519113841 user_id=2623 Wrote:... the octave break in the chord reeds between F and F♯ interferes.

The octave break, mostly in the base notes but sometimes in the chords, can indeed make or break an arrangement. Fortunately some instruments (like the Bugari I used) do a very reasonable attempt at hiding the octave break. My bayan really sucks at hiding the break in the chords, but the 4-reed base note settings are not so bad at hiding the break.
Paul De Bra (not Debra...)
http://www.de-bra.nl
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#11
<QUOTE author="Geronimo" post_id="55580" time="1519113841" user_id="2623"><s>
Geronimo post_id=55580 time=1519113841 user_id=2623 Wrote:[...] but I noticed only in bed tonight that D+c does not just give Dsus4add7 but actually Dsus4add79. So I checked this morning. Not a problem (the character is really that of a sus4 and not of a sus2).
<QUOTE author="debra" post_id="55585" time="1519128943" user_id="605"><s>
debra post_id=55585 time=1519128943 user_id=605 Wrote:<QUOTE author="Geronimo" post_id="55580" time="1519113841" user_id="2623"><s>
Geronimo post_id=55580 time=1519113841 user_id=2623 Wrote:... the octave break in the chord reeds between F and F♯ interferes.
The octave break, mostly in the base notes but sometimes in the chords, can indeed make or break an arrangement. Fortunately some instruments (like the Bugari I used) do a very reasonable attempt at hiding the octave break. My bayan really sucks at hiding the break in the chords, but the 4-reed base note settings are not so bad at hiding the break.
Accidentally added another data point to your statement: this morning the D+c cadenza thing did not work at all, "the character is really that of a sus4 and not of a sus2" being completely false. The character was that of a sus2 very clearly. After trying a few times I realized that for some other attempt I had moved the chord octave start down from A♭3 to G3, so the lead note sequence turned from G4-F♯4-F4 to G3-F♯4-F4 which again didn't work. Pushing the slider up one note again fixed this.

So whether my proposal works will depend on the instrument and registration. I think it's only some smaller accordions with 4-reed bass that may start their chord octave on G unilaterally. Italian instruments tend to have several different breaks.

How does the chord sequence D+c, D+d7, D+f work for you? Even if you find it doesn't fully do the trick without right hand support for you, it should still allow reverting to a more subtle registration than not using any chord button on the first chord.
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#12
<URL url="https://youtu.be/hcdtCpzlFxA">https://youtu.be/hcdtCpzlFxA</URL>

This contains the changes I proposed to Paul (shortly after the 1:00 mark). It's also registered better suited to recording. Be sure to listen on something able to replay bass notes (like headphones) because there is just the low bass reed and that makes a significant part of the charm. It will be some time before I can make the next attempt at recording so I just finished this because I like registrations, plan and recording much better than the first try (though I'm not exactly thrilled at the executioner).
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#13
I just saw the score, and I think it's great that you got here in this time.

I have a side question: around 1:40 you play some high notes with the bass droning away, and it sounds like the bass affects the high note slightly and causes it to "tremble" a bit too.

Now I've noticed this never before, only with my new Bugari this also happens. It's not always but sometimes when some resonant combi is reached I think. I guess because it's so "tight" that everything is picked up by the reeds.
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#14
<QUOTE author="jozz" post_id="55625" time="1519285954" user_id="2600"><s>
jozz post_id=55625 time=1519285954 user_id=2600 Wrote:I just saw the score, and I think it's great that you got here in this time.

I have a side question: around 1:40 you play some high notes with the bass droning away, and it sounds like the bass affects the high note slightly and causes it to "tremble" a bit too.

Now I've noticed this never before, only with my new Bugari this also happens. It's not always but sometimes when some resonant combi is reached I think. I guess because it's so "tight" that everything is picked up by the reeds.
Well, I don't actually find what you are talking about here (though viewed with the uploaded movies rather than what Youtube delivers) and around 1:40 the bellows is pretty wide open in either upload, so either we are not talking about the same passage or that effect is unlikely to be witnessed at that point: almost more likely that my bellows action gets shaky because of overextending.

If you are talking about the first soundcheck, I am playing there with "half-tremolo" where the tremolo sliders are barely open: that causes sort of a "chorus effect" that does not make it all that well through recording and encoding. But that's not as much a tremble as a somewhat regular effect though with quite more variability on different notes and push and pull than regular tremolo.
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#15
Talking about the second video, and I hear it from 1:38 to 1:40. There is a slight tremble in the high note, I don't think it's tremolo because the notes around it don't have it. It could have lots of causes, maybe the video quality itself but it sounds very much like what I hear myself doing sometimes now.
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#16
<QUOTE author="jozz" post_id="55628" time="1519292309" user_id="2600"><s>
jozz post_id=55628 time=1519292309 user_id=2600 Wrote:Talking about the second video, and I hear it from 1:38 to 1:40. There is a slight tremble in the high note, I don't think it's tremolo because the notes around it don't have it. It could have lots of causes, maybe the video quality itself but it sounds very much like what I hear myself doing sometimes now.

I have trouble hearing what you mean, other than that you can see a tremble with the right hand (if I'm looking at the right video). I know I should make some new recordings with different instruments... but then I first need to study more to play it without errors, and manage the air consumption. (The Bugari used in my recording had a large bellows and basses that did not use too much air. Now I only have convertor or MIII with low and air-consuming bass making it harder to manage the air. Also, my "large" bayan for some reason only has 16 bellow folds (the Bugari has 18).
Paul De Bra (not Debra...)
http://www.de-bra.nl
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#17
<QUOTE author="debra" post_id="55630" time="1519295942" user_id="605"><s>
debra post_id=55630 time=1519295942 user_id=605 Wrote:<QUOTE author="jozz" post_id="55628" time="1519292309" user_id="2600"><s>
jozz post_id=55628 time=1519292309 user_id=2600 Wrote:Talking about the second video, and I hear it from 1:38 to 1:40. There is a slight tremble in the high note, I don't think it's tremolo because the notes around it don't have it. It could have lots of causes, maybe the video quality itself but it sounds very much like what I hear myself doing sometimes now.

I have trouble hearing what you mean, other than that you can see a tremble with the right hand (if I'm looking at the right video).
Oh. Tremble is probably the wrong expression. That's actually likely my violin roots showing through: this is vibrato (even though here it is in the right hand while the violin has it in the left). It <I><s>does</I> affect the sound which is the point, likely by inducing slight pressure changes. It's funny that Jozz can discern this in the resulting sound while I couldn't, even though it's clearly an intentional effect. But not the fault of the bass reeds.
<QUOTE><s>
Quote: I know I should make some new recordings with different instruments... but then I first need to study more to play it without errors, and manage the air consumption. (The Bugari used in my recording had a large bellows and basses that did not use too much air. Now I only have convertor or MIII with low and air-consuming bass making it harder to manage the air. Also, my "large" bayan for some reason only has 16 bellow folds (the Bugari has 18).
You are welcome to pack all your instruments and what other (recording?) equipment you like and come for a visit (near Dortmund) where you get some other recording equipment and a bunch of instruments (all C system) and a recording assistant.
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#18
<QUOTE author="debra" post_id="55630" time="1519295942" user_id="605"><s>
debra post_id=55630 time=1519295942 user_id=605 Wrote:(The Bugari used in my recording had a large bellows and basses that did not use too much air. Now I only have convertor or MIII with low and air-consuming bass making it harder to manage the air. Also, my "large" bayan for some reason only has 16 bellow folds (the Bugari has 18).
I actually count 14 folds on my main instrument (in the video) but my limiting factor still is my arm. I suppose that the depth of the bellows folds and/or bellows cross section also play into it. Or there are special techniques I don't master properly.
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#19
I mean, the longer I practise on this, the slower it gets and the more defective it becomes. I crosschecked with the original harmonica version and decided that I was using seriously too few "instruments", both in sequence and at the same time. Also I was not doing the character of a solo over an orchestral backdrop justice. So now I am reworking registration and articulation, and it's a holey mess.

Hear for yourself (I probably could have edited together something better: this is the last mistige rooie beest and the next to last rosa turbinata, but pasting stuff from all over the recording session just isn't worth it at the current state).

<URL url="https://youtu.be/-ard5AgCzA0">https://youtu.be/-ard5AgCzA0</URL>

Ah, I thought I'd use a good view on the bass hand: I mean, that's the hand that actually does the involved work.
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#20
You have a good solution to the impossible chord. The registration and bellow control require some further work, but in the end there will be a nice new performance!
Paul De Bra (not Debra...)
http://www.de-bra.nl
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