Just completed a recording with 8 tracks.
#21
Thanks for the advice about the stereo width. I made a new remix at https://www.de-bra.nl/muziek/Concerto-rv522.mp3 which should sound clearer by separating the voices over the stereo width more. Yeah... retired people do have the time to keep remixing...
Paul De Bra (not Debra...)
http://www.de-bra.nl
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#22
(27-01-2019, 09:31 PM)debra Wrote: Thanks for the advice about the stereo width. I made a new remix at https://www.de-bra.nl/muziek/Concerto-rv522.mp3 which should sound clearer by separating the voices over the stereo width more. Yeah... retired people do have the time to keep remixing...

I have retired too. Now it is time to enjoy our hobbies. Accordion to me is tough to EQ, mix. I only listened to this on my stereo iPad built in speakers. Which I think is not a good judge. Also, in my studio use only reference headphones and speakers which I may listen later. 
In my view, compress a little bit. Try the effects reverb more on one channel...I am only suggesting. Not to take away from your dedicated fine playing...some may hear it different.
Larry Roberts Entertainment
https://www.larryrobertsent.com
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#23
(27-01-2019, 10:52 PM)Keymn Wrote: Accordion to me is tough to EQ, mix. I only listened to this on my stereo iPad built in speakers. Which I think is not a good judge. Also, in my studio use only reference headphones and speakers which I may listen later. 
In my view, compress a little bit. Try the effects reverb more on one channel...I am only suggesting. Not to take away from your dedicated fine playing...some may hear it different.


Accordions are a touch harder to mix as they already have less pf a volume dynamic range than let's say a lot of other instruments (trumpet or sax for example).  Meaning their very loud and very soft parts are closer together than others.  Compression takes out the loudest parts and makes the overall volume the same all across, further reducing the dynamic range, which is why compression by itself removes a lot of the punch, so it has to be put back in via the mix, if you do compress, even a little.  But there are exceptions to everything.

Now, when playing live, compression is actually quite important, it helps lower or eliminate the chances of feedback due to overdriving the signal for an overly enthusiastic singer or musician.  This is where recording live bands and studio recording VASTLY differs.  When playing live, you gain stage EVERYTHING that goes in to your mixer at the highest possible levels, short of clipping.  You do this to get highest volume from your amps without overdriving them, which causes overheating and can over time damage them.

Recording at home or in a studio is the complete opposite... we record the loudest parts of our music at 12-20 db under clipping and if we hear it back at normal levels after first capturing the instrument, its hard to hear anything at lower volumes.  We do this to reduce external influences, optimize the incoming signal and get as clean an input as possible and basically zero out our chances of coming anywhere near clipping.  Right after that, this is why the 2nd step most pro studios do is normalize to a level that comes right up close to the 0db mark, but never over it.. then mix, remix and mix it again.  Every time an effect is added the mix has to be touched up again to balance things out.

Now, I know that Paul has a strong dislike of reverb (he's said so many times!), but the fact is that almost every room except a heavily sound controlled room will have some reverb or echo.  Rooms without this are called "dead" rooms and rooms with some kind of echo/reverb are called "live" rooms, and for good reason.  A bit of echo brings life to music in general, and in some cases, like making a video in a church (if you do things right), won't sound like it is in a church because most microphones are not set up to capture that sound (unless you use an Omni-directional mic, of course), and you will have to add reverb/echo to make it sound realistic in the mix, if you made a video in such a location.  To me, reverb is very pleasurable and I often add a lot in my recordings and back it down because of other people's comments, and I shouldn't do that... I should do what I think sounds best to my ears... well, not go nuts with 4 seconds of continual echo, but I love that feel of ambience that locations like a church or large hall have!

Most people don't even realize it, but there is such a thing as stereo reverb... this is where the instrument is heard on the (lets say) left side and it's echo is heard only on the right side.  Visa versa for instruments that are panned to the right.  This effect has to be balanced super carefully, as if it is a hard left/hard right setup, the image becomes so wide as to be distracting and obvious in the music.  Bands like ABBA and ELO used this effect a lot in very specific songs.  Again it has it's place and should be played with before using.  You won't find the stereo reverb effect on most mixers, but you will see it in some plug-ins.  Personal opinion time... I hate the sound of stereo reverb as it is simply not realistic to my ears... I have never sat in a music hall and with an orchestra playing, heard a violin solo that is placed on the right side with it's echo on my left... rather the reverb comes generally from everywhere, and that is the kind of reverb I like best.  Smile
___________________________________________________________

My musical memoires blog/website: http://www.AccordionMemories.com
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#24
I like the remix!

the piece in itself is lovely done, so it's hard to go wrong in anycase

regarding compression, loudness and reference: to get that "record-feel"...try opening your favourite radio station in your browser and play it over the same speakers you are mixing on

then start to subtly add compression, A/B-ing your master mix to the radio output until your mix's "feel" more or less resembles the "feel" of the radio station, you should aim for the same loudness as they have...if you get it right it will play nice on most current devices

maintain definition by EQ-ing your tracks (parts) and making sure to put everything in its proper frequency range, turning down all frequencies that are not needed or prominent for that track

once rendered, your mastermix waveform should look like a massive block of waves instead of the skinnier recorded originals you started out with, whilst still maintaining enough definition of the music
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#25
Sounds good!
Definitely, compression needs to be in final mix so it sounds evenly balanced. On my live settings on the QSC Touch mix 8, have compression on vocals, accordion and BK-7m. I add limiter on the final output master. Playing in a restaurant, gives a nice balance of sound. Like this mixer which is like having a DAW on stage without a computer.
Larry Roberts Entertainment
https://www.larryrobertsent.com
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#26
(28-01-2019, 03:13 PM)jozz Wrote: I like the remix!
regarding compression, loudness and reference: to get that "record-feel"...try opening your favourite radio station in your browser and play it over the same speakers you are mixing on

then start to subtly add compression, A/B-ing your master mix to the radio output until your mix's "feel" more or less resembles the "feel" of the radio station, you should aim for the same loudness as they have...if you get it right it will play nice on most current devices
What a superb piece of advice.. A gem... Thank you
Right or wrong make it strong...when in doubt miss it out...
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#27
What I did in the recording is first of all to follow the dynamics that are indicated (some possibly be written by Vivaldi, some invented by myself). But, as Jerry indicated, the dynamic range of accordions is somewhat limited. (The Hohner Morino is a bit more limited than a modern Italian or Russian box.) To increase the dynamic range of an accordion orchestra solo or duo parts are introduced. When I mix the tracks I make the soft parts even softer and the loud parts louder. So this is exactly the opposite of compression (it's expansion). When you are enjoying music in a good (quiet) room with large speakers, or with a good headset, you want a large dynamic range. A radio station on the other hand uses compression to make everything more or less equally loud, so you can enjoy the music in a noisy car or as background music in an office. Different goals, and therefore different dynamics.
Regarding reverb, I do add reverb, and depending on the song I add more or less reverb, so as to make it sound right to my ears. Others may want more reverb but I then tend to feel it takes away from the clarity of the sound. It is a matter of taste. At a concert I often record with 2 mics facing the musicians and 2 mics facing the concert hall. I then mix the two until it sounds right to my ear. The sound is always better than what you get from computer-generated reverb. A nice example of the result is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sufS3MXlpDA which is a recording I made of "Erbarme Dich" played by Accordeana in a concert hall in Oelde, Germany. The "violin solo" played on accordion was done by me (on the Hohner Morino Artiste XS) and the "soprano" was done by someone else, also on a Hohner Morino. There was no way these instruments were going to be capable to be heard as well as they are without amplification. (A mic and the Bose L1 that amplifies the bass was used for this.) The performance itself isn't flawless and the drummer abused the triangle despite being forbidden to do anything. On the next concert (in a church) I will record again, but now that I play the AKKO and there are 2 accordions for the soprano we won't be needing amplification. This brings me to another point: when making my "studio" recordings I have to take into account the difference in volume between the accordions. The AKKO is easily twice as loud as the Morino (and the Bugari I also use is in between). The difference has to be compensated for in the mix as well.
Paul De Bra (not Debra...)
http://www.de-bra.nl
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#28
(27-01-2019, 09:31 PM)debra Wrote:  I made a new remix at https://www.de-bra.nl/muziek/Concerto-rv522.mp3 which should sound clearer by separating the voices over the stereo width more. Yeah... retired people do have the time to keep remixing...

One of the beauties of having the individual tracks... and being retired  Smile

I liked hearing it through my computer speakers (Bose), it had cleaner separation and it does sound as if I were listening to more than one person at a time, but the one thing that was kind of lacking was the depth of the deeper notes on the bass.  I know the AKKO bass sounds deeper/richer than how you recorded it, having heard them several times in real life now, its one of their traits, one that I actually love hearing.


You have created a mental visual of "location".  This was definitely mixed to be heard through speakers and less with headphones.  When I listened again with headphones, I really hear the new differences.  The hard left and hard right pan of the setup was (for me) too extreme, meaning that is not how I would be hearing this in real life if I had 8 Pauls in the room playing it for me.  Certainly not bad in any way, but with headphones, the first one was more natural for me, but I think the best combination is the 2nd version on speakers, and that is the way most people (I think), will be hearing it.

The arrangement and execution were of course excellent, but I do have a preference for the 2nd remix.

One can do this over and over again and almost make a different song each time!   Cool
___________________________________________________________

My musical memoires blog/website: http://www.AccordionMemories.com
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#29
(29-01-2019, 10:45 AM)JerryPH Wrote:
(27-01-2019, 09:31 PM)debra Wrote:  I made a new remix at https://www.de-bra.nl/muziek/Concerto-rv522.mp3 which should sound clearer by separating the voices over the stereo width more. Yeah... retired people do have the time to keep remixing...

...
I liked hearing it through my computer speakers (Bose), it had cleaner separation and it does sound as if I were listening to more than one person at a time, but the one thing that was kind of lacking was the depth of the deeper notes on the bass.  I know the AKKO bass sounds deeper/richer than how you recorded it, having heard them several times in real life now, its one of their traits, one that I actually love hearing.
...


In this recording the bass is played on a Pigini bass accordion. I agree that recording the bass accordion directly (through excellent mics, so they do not dampen the low frequencies) does not produce the strong depth I get when recording a live performance where the bass goes through the Bose L1 (model 2). I had a Bugari bass accordion before and I preferred how it sounded without amplification (it has an "Umleitstimmstock", which acts like a cassotto). But I do like that the Pigini has registers and I actively use them in many recordings, just not this one.

When you had 8 Pauls in a room playing this piece and acc 1a would be leftmost and acc 1b rightmost you would definitely hear the wide stereo the latest mix has. However, having the two solo parts on opposite sides is not common, so in that sense I have a bit of an artificial setup in the mix.
It is actually surprisingly difficult to create a consistent sound (or at least the impression of it) while recording different types of music. Some requires a bit stronger bass, some a bit more reverb, ... my "grand scheme" is to produce at least one "Professor P" cd (before I die). It started as a way to illustrate the arrangements I am making, but the perfectionist in me got the better of me and I wasn't satisfied with just what I put on YouTube so I started re-recording and re-mixing... and it is a slow process. If you want to check out what's there so far: https://www.de-bra.nl/Professor-P-cd/ (I am not worried about getting in trouble for posting this because all the compositions are in the public domain and I am not collecting rights on my arrangements or performances.)
Paul De Bra (not Debra...)
http://www.de-bra.nl
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#30
This is a great recording, and playing! I played in the Kitchener Accordion Symphony when I was a student and we played this piece.
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