C-system fingering. Scales.
#21
If you want to, there are some very good German C-system accordion method books. 
Search for C-Griff or C-Grip. 

It's a pity English native speakers don't have a look inside the Elsbeth Moser, Joerg Draeger, Rudolf Wuerthner, Curt Mahr, and other  German tutorials. 

The Germans use very consequent fingering techniques for CBA.
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#22
(29-09-2019, 11:31 AM)Stephen Wrote: If you want to, there are some very good German C-system accordion method books. 
Search for C-Griff or C-Grip. 

It's a pity English native speakers don't have a look inside the Elsbeth Moser, Joerg Draeger, Rudolf Wuerthner, Curt Mahr, and other  German tutorials. 

The Germans use very consequent fingering techniques for CBA.

Hi Stephen,

That's a very valid point, although I can honestly say that I've never heard of any of the players and/or methods concerned. CBA seems to never have been popular enough in English speaking countries to justify any dedicated CBA methods. The very few method books the UK stores decided to import were from Italy and France only.

The fact that German notation uses "H" for "B" and "B" for "Bb" poses difficulty for most English speaking types. 

On these islands the notion of having to cope with anything not "British" is still often a major hurdle for many. 

They had to shut all our car factories down to convince us that other countries made them cheaper and better than we did!
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#23
In Belgium we don't have those chauvinistic or nationalistic reflex regarding music education. 
When you live in a country like Belgium, you look over the borders and try to learn from other countries. 

Didacticts, pedagogy, fingering techniques,... Are the results of international evolutions. 

One misses out on a lot of experience If accordionists don't study the German and Russian CBA traditions. 

Especially the most recent tutors from the 1980s to present. 

With the internet shops, every German, Russian, French accordion method book can be purchased day and night. 

Anyone can send emails to continental accordion teachers and ask them what method books they use in public music schools. 

But I guess Nigel, Boris and Don Trumpet won't care. 
These guys will blow the trumpet behind walls ;-) 


We also have the USA or UK in our shops. 
Every guitar or mandolin amateur in Europe will look out for USA collectors items from the USA or Britain. 

You don't need to be fluent in German or Russian to learn from their accordion tutor books.
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#24
(29-09-2019, 03:53 PM)Stephen Wrote: In Belgium we don't have those chauvinistic or nationalistic reflex regarding music education. 
When you live in a country like Belgium, you look over the borders and try to learn from other countries. 

Didacticts, pedagogy, fingering techniques,... Are the results of international evolutions. 

One misses out on a lot of experience If accordionists don't study the German and Russian CBA traditions. 

Especially the most recent tutors from the 1980s to present. 

With the internet shops, every German, Russian, French accordion method book can be purchased day and night. 

Anyone can send emails to continental accordion teachers and ask them what method books they use in public music schools. 

But I guess Nigel, Boris and Don Trumpet won't care. 
These guys will blow the trumpet behind walls ;-) 


We also have the USA or UK in our shops. 
Every guitar or mandolin amateur in Europe will look out for USA collectors items from the USA or Britain. 

You don't need to be fluent in German or Russian to learn from their accordion tutor books.

This is neither the time nor place for cheap snide political jibes.  However, since you bring it up I will remind you that you or your ancestors were quite happy to have your country salvaged by the efforts of my grandfathers and uncles in two world wars.  I am fluent in French, and can manage in German, Danish, Italian and Spanish.  I have worked in Europe, but I am not happy with the “ever greater union” peddled by the EU enthusiasts.  I voted to leave the EU on both occasions when I could.  That is my democratic right.  A right which is being daily denied by those who think they know better.  I forbear to comment on the deficiencies of other nations’ polities.  I would be grateful if you will return the compliment.  

Incidentally, Chauvin, from whom the term chauvinism derives is, so far as can be told, a mythical character.  His origin is often said to be Charente Maritime, but given his non-existence, he could just as easily have been a Walloon.  Not, then, part of Belgium, as the Napoleonic wars antedate the country’s foundation.

If you’d read my initial post you would see that I referred to a number of European guides.  Some are available in English, others in French.  Naturally English is easier, but French is not a problem.  I now have sufficient tutorials in French and English to be going on with, though I might investigate German ones in future.

(28-09-2019, 07:02 PM)WilliamKErickson Wrote: Hey ChrisRayner,

I know this discussion is a little old, but I just ran across it after picking up a CBA and I'm trying to decide what tutorial book to start with.  Would you mind terribly putting down the fingering for the C major scale (Thumb = 1) from each of the three books you mention:  Anzaghi, Lucien&Richard Galliano, and Manu Maugain?  That way I could try them out and then start with the book with the fingering that seems the best fit for me (I know from your earlier discussion you decided to go with Anzaghi).

Any other comments about the approaches in each book would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
Bill.
Bill,

It’s not just C major.  The principle I am following in my progress is to learn scales, initially, in the outer three rows.  So I am looking at fingering for the scales of G, F, and C major.  It was a combination of all the fingerings which lead me to choose Anzaghi.  I really don’t want to copy out the fingerings for nine scales.  I’m over seventy now, and time is not on my side.  If you are really keen PM me and I’ll reply with photos of the relevant pages.  They are, of course, copyright and posting them here would be improper.

As a beginner I would recommend you to see if you can find a teacher.  He or she should be able to recommend a tutorial book, and you will probably find, as I have, that the tuition will aid your progress in many different ways.  Actually, there’s more in the books than just fingering, and, even if you buy all you can get sight unseen, I suspect you’ll find them good value for money.

In fact my tutor is using pieces and exercises from Palmer-Hughes mostly, which is for piano accordion.  I have been obliged in a few cases to obliterate the fingerings on the music and to work out my own which I have written in over the correction tape.  She is, as I think I said, a B-griff player, so not really much help on fingering for the C-system.
Elderly teenager still experimenting with music of all descriptions.  I may not please anyone else, but I’m long past caring about that.
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#25
If it is major scales on the outer 3 rows that is your desire, then all you need to learn is 3 patterns, and you have access to ALL the scales at that point (not just F, C or G), it just depends on the starting note, 1st, 2nd or 3rd row. I don't play C-system button accordion, but I do play C-system Free Bass, and the layout is identical. That is how I learned... at least initially, damn the note, learn the patterns and then apply the right pattern based on the starting row note, the scales all flow easily at that point. Wink

Of course learning minor, diminished or other scales obviously will have different "patterns" but the same rule applies... 3 patterns and you are good.
Now, if you want to take advantage of that 4th or 5th row... that is where the fun starts. Big Grin
___________________________________________________________

My musical memoires blog/website: http://www.AccordionMemories.com
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#26
(29-09-2019, 06:38 PM)JerryPH Wrote: If it is major scales on the outer 3 rows that is your desire, then all you need to learn is 3 patterns, and you have access to ALL the scales at that point (not just F, C or G), it just depends on the starting note, 1st, 2nd or 3rd row.  I don't play C-system button accordion, but I do play C-system Free Bass, and the layout is identical.  That is how I learned... at least initially, damn the note, learn the patterns and then apply the right pattern based on the starting row note, the scales all flow easily at that point.  Wink

Of course learning minor, diminished or other scales obviously will have different "patterns" but the same rule applies... 3 patterns and you are good.
Now, if you want to take advantage of that 4th or 5th row... that is where the fun starts.  Big Grin

Hi Jerry,

I wasn't aware that Free Bass was effectively a mirror image of C system treble on a CBA. Don't think I've ever seen a converter accordion, but I know I couldn't play one, as I struggle with Stradella, big time. 

Going onto the 4th and 5th row on CBA does tend to open up new possibilities, but I learned on 4 row and couldn't contemplate using the 5th row, as I would get "lost". Some teachers won't let pupils use the 4th row at all until they have built up a solid technique on 3 rows, although Michel Lorin's method allows use of row 4 to play scales, with the thumb passing under finger 4 in the C scale, going from F to G, followed by A on row 4 using finger 2. He was one of the first teachers to allow students to use their right thumb from the outset. His book came out in the 70s, and his choice of fingering attracted some controversy. 

I have two accordions with 5 rows and two with 4 rows, and the only time I strike a button on row 5 is by accident. 

Three patterns require to be mastered as you say, but most UK CBA teachers taught students to play across all 5 rows using the same fingering for every scale. When I asked why they did that I was told that 5 row CBA was made to allow for that very facility, and not to use all 5 rows was wrong. I wasn't in a position to argue, and most UK CBA players I've seen use that very system.

Fun indeed!
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#27
(13-08-2019, 10:42 PM)Chrisrayner Wrote:
(13-08-2019, 10:23 PM)Stephen Wrote: The pianist Artur Schnabel's motto regarding piano fingering and technique was "safety last"...

It is many years since I compared myself with any great musician.  Never mind ‘let not the excellent be the enemy of the good.’  I’m happy letting not the mediocre be the enemy of the piss-poor.

@ChrisRayner,

I ignored your first remark on my quote, because I wanted to avoid trouble.
But now, you personally attack me and the EU with your Brexit remarks in one of your latest replies.
This time I will not let it pass without a reaction, buddy.

I suggest we avoid talking to each other here on the forum. I'll try to stay away from topics you started, I suggest you stay away from topics I started.

Maybe you, Nigel and Boris can piss on your Brexshit? Maybe it will resolve in a magical way...

Or I suggest you go serenading with your accordion under Boris' and Don's balcony.
"That's amore" is beautiful, if you can't work it out, I'll send you a fingered score.

Don't blame me or the EU for the trouble your MP's can't solve.

I will not block you from leaving this forum, that's for sure.
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#28
(29-09-2019, 05:44 PM)Chrisrayner Wrote:
(29-09-2019, 03:53 PM)Stephen Wrote: In Belgium we don't have those chauvinistic or nationalistic reflex regarding music education. 
When you live in a country like Belgium, you look over the borders and try to learn from other countries. 

Chris,

Sorry, but it seems I inadvertently started the ball rolling on this one. 

It seems that Stephen possibly picked up on my opinion that the general tendency is for Brits to be xenophobic, consistent with our island life. No correlation to the current political situation was inferred or implied, and I believe his reply was intended to be light hearted, rather than offensive. 

I have dual Irish/British nationality, so I'm lucky to have a choice of two islands, but at least half of me will still be in the EU whatever happens, whether I like it or not. 

I do realise these are sensitive times, and perhaps my post was inappropriate. Had I known it would have ultimately caused offence to anyone, I wouldn't have worded it as I did.   

(29-09-2019, 08:37 PM)Stephen Wrote:
(13-08-2019, 10:42 PM)Chrisrayner Wrote:
(13-08-2019, 10:23 PM)Stephen Wrote: The pianist Artur Schnabel's motto regarding piano fingering and technique was "safety last"...

It is many years since I compared myself with any great musician.  Never mind ‘let not the excellent be the enemy of the good.’  I’m happy letting not the mediocre be the enemy of the piss-poor.

@ChrisRayner,

I ignored your first remark on my quote, because I wanted to avoid trouble.
But now, you personally attack me and the EU with your Brexit remarks in one of your latest replies.
This time I will not let it pass without a reaction, buddy.

I suggest we avoid talking to each other here on the forum. I'll try to stay away from topics you started, I suggest you stay away from topics I started.

Maybe you, Nigel and Boris can piss on your Brexshit? Maybe it will resolve in a magical way...

Or I suggest you go serenading with your accordion under Boris' and Don's balcony.
"That's amore" is beautiful, if you can't work it out, I'll send you a fingered score.

Don't blame me or the EU for the trouble your MP's can't solve.

I will not block you from leaving this forum, that's for sure.

Hi Stephen,

It seems that my last post in the thread caused this issue. You are obviously aware that the current political situation here is pretty dire, and we don't all share the same opinions or views. 

I have two nationalities, Irish and British, and don't really get passionate about either one, as it can lead to complications within my family, never mind with people in different countries.  

May I suggest sending a PM to a moderator so that the issue can possibly be resolved?
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#29
(29-09-2019, 08:37 PM)Stephen Wrote:
(13-08-2019, 10:42 PM)Chrisrayner Wrote:
(13-08-2019, 10:23 PM)Stephen Wrote: The pianist Artur Schnabel's motto regarding piano fingering and technique was "safety last"...

It is many years since I compared myself with any great musician.  Never mind ‘let not the excellent be the enemy of the good.’  I’m happy letting not the mediocre be the enemy of the piss-poor.

@ChrisRayner,

I ignored your first remark on my quote, because I wanted to avoid trouble.
But now, you personally attack me and the EU with your Brexit remarks in one of your latest replies.
This time I will not let it pass without a reaction, buddy.

I suggest we avoid talking to each other here on the forum. I'll try to stay away from topics you started, I suggest you stay away from topics I started.

Maybe you, Nigel and Boris can piss on your Brexshit? Maybe it will resolve in a magical way...

Or I suggest you go serenading with your accordion under Boris' and Don's balcony.
"That's amore" is beautiful, if you can't work it out, I'll send you a fingered score.

Don't blame me or the EU for the trouble your MP's can't solve.

I will not block you from leaving this forum, that's for sure.

Cet animal est très méchant.  Quand on l’attaque il se défend.  

It seems that you are happy to dish it out, but you can’t take it.  I will ignore your infantile scatological insults.  I’m sorry if you found my response to your quote from Schnabel offensive, it was not intended to be, nor do I see how you have interpreted it as such.  However your sarcastic insults concerning my politics are unmistakable.  I will not accept ignorant ill-informed insults from anybody, nor will I accept directions from you or anybody else.  Do ignore my posts in future, that’s your privilege, but I will not be dictated to by you.
Elderly teenager still experimenting with music of all descriptions.  I may not please anyone else, but I’m long past caring about that.
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#30
The remark by ChrisRayner who compared me to the "piss-poor", was not about politics.

And as to his latest response to me: I will certainly not apologize to him or his grandparents. We Belgians don't have to be on or knees to thank his grandparents. 
Belgium is not a colony or province of the UK or USA.
The colonial days are over and out, I think the Britains will soon realise that after they have left the EU (or not).
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#31
(29-09-2019, 09:25 PM)Stephen Wrote: The remark by ChrisRayner who compared me to the "piss-poor", was not about politics.

No I didn’t.  I was referring to myself as piss poor.  I’m sorry you took it that way, that was not my intention.
Elderly teenager still experimenting with music of all descriptions.  I may not please anyone else, but I’m long past caring about that.
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#32
Hi , I am almost in the same boat as you....at 82 and loving the c grip button accordion....I have a music Tech and love it. Concentrating on the Giuliano book and songs, but you sound way ahead of me and I have been working at it longer than you!
(06-08-2019, 06:54 PM)Chrisrayner Wrote: I am now a few weeks in to getting to grips with the chromatic button accordion.  C-griff.  I am learning a few easy pieces, and attempting to master scales.  I have several tutorial books, and a very good teacher who, however plays the other keyboard, B-griff.  I sort of worked out my own fingering for scales, which I tended to vary with each attempt.  At my last lesson my teacher picked me up on this and advised me to use the same fingering every time.  Which seems reasonable.

So I set about reviewing the recommendations in my three books.  They are: Anzaghi, Lucien & Richard Galliano, and Manu Maugain.  Each book prescribes different fingering.  Admittedly there are, unsurprisingly, some areas of agreement, but certainly for the scales of C, F, & G major which I am concentrating on just now, there are substantial differences.  Should I just pick and choose those which I find most comfortable, or is there some unifying rule?  Sadly, at 71, my right hand is a little less agile than it was fifty years ago.
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#33
(15-12-2019, 01:34 PM)Rpenza Wrote: Hi , I am almost in the same boat as you....at 82 and loving the c grip button accordion....I have a music Tech and love it.  Concentrating on the Giuliano book and songs, but you sound way ahead of me and I have been working at it longer than you!
Should we form an Association of Senile C-Griff Beginners?
Elderly teenager still experimenting with music of all descriptions.  I may not please anyone else, but I’m long past caring about that.
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#34
Oh my!
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#35
(06-08-2019, 06:54 PM)Chrisrayner Wrote: ...but certainly for the scales of C, F, & G major which I am concentrating on just now, there are substantial differences.  Should I just pick and choose those which I find most comfortable, or is there some unifying rule?  Sadly, at 71, my right hand is a little less agile than it was fifty years ago.

Of course they are different.. they start on different rows (C on the bottom row, F, top row and G, the middle row).  Hence you need to learn 3 patterns.

Now... here is where having a 4-5 row would be different... because if you started with the G from the middle row, with a 4-row setup it would be the same pattern as the C-scale.  Now, getting fancy, if you have a 5 row and start from the F on the 3rd row, you can use the exact same pattern as the C scale (again), and be good.

But most methods make you learn the first 3 rows and therefore, if you are using a 3 row, you only need to "learn" 3 patterns (when the first note starts on the 1st row, 2nd row, 3rd row), after which you can play scales in ANY key.  Wink

I certainly do not play button accordion, but I do dabble in 3-row C-Griff Free Bass on the Hohner, and 4-row free Bass on the Roland (yuck!), so that is where my insight comes from.  Smile

Learn the 3 patterns and you are good for all the scales in the book.
___________________________________________________________

My musical memoires blog/website: http://www.AccordionMemories.com
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#36
(15-12-2019, 07:21 PM)JerryPH Wrote:
(06-08-2019, 06:54 PM)Chrisrayner Wrote: ...but certainly for the scales of C, F, & G major which I am concentrating on just now, there are substantial differences.  Should I just pick and choose those which I find most comfortable, or is there some unifying rule?  Sadly, at 71, my right hand is a little less agile than it was fifty years ago.

Of course they are different.. they start on different rows (C on the bottom row, F, top row and G, the middle row).  Hence you need to learn 3 patterns.

Now... here is where having a 4-5 row would be different... because if you started with the G from the middle row, with a 4-row setup it would be the same pattern as the C-scale.  Now, getting fancy, if you have a 5 row and start from the F on the 3rd row, you can use the exact same pattern as the C scale (again), and be good.

But most methods make you learn the first 3 rows and therefore, if you are using a 3 row, you only need to "learn" 3 patterns (when the first note starts on the 1st row, 2nd row, 3rd row), after which you can play scales in ANY key.  Wink

I certainly do not play button accordion, but I do dabble in 3-row C-Griff Free Bass on the Hohner, and 4-row free Bass on the Roland (yuck!), so that is where my insight comes from.  Smile

Learn the 3 patterns and you are good for all the scales in the book.
Sorry, I think I expressed myself unclearly.  What I meant is that for each of the (obviously) different scales there are several different fingerings.  I’ve sorted myself out now.
Elderly teenager still experimenting with music of all descriptions.  I may not please anyone else, but I’m long past caring about that.
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#37
For what its worth don't worry too much about scales... The fingerings change between different chord directions anyways.... Most important thing i wished id paid a lot more attention to is bellows control and dynamics.... Good luck...
Right or wrong make it strong...when in doubt miss it out...
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#38
(15-12-2019, 10:07 PM)losthobos Wrote: For what its worth don't worry too much about scales... The fingerings change between different chord directions anyways.... Most important thing i wished id paid a lot more attention to is bellows control and dynamics.... Good luck...

Hi Terry,

You're spot on there. Fingering tends to change over time as the player adapts to the type of music he/she plays. There are CBA players who were taught to use one fingering only to play all of the the scales across all five rows, and some of those are professionals. 

Bellows control and expression are a very big part of mastering the accordion, as well as working out the mystery of the Stradella bass system, essential if you want to provide more than just very basic accompaniment. There is nothing wrong with very basic bass accompaniment, as that's all that Stradella was probably intended for, but just don't expect to get away with it in a room full of accordion aficionados.
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