3/3 french bass pros and cons?

[craigd]

My head is spinning a bit from reading up on this. I am considering a very nice accordion, but feel I will miss the diminished row. I have read that the 7ths on this system will do for diminished of the next row up because they omit the fundamental instead of the 5th (which regular stradella omit). I see how this provides the missing diminished chord, but doesn't this also limit the flexibility of the seventh chord (for building 9ths etc)? And how useful is the minor 3rd counterbass row?

 

[losthobos]

I prefer the 3x3 system, see chart above to see all options of the F7 button... Also when playing in the key of C it is more likely that you'll use the C#dim chord than Cdim... And C7 spelt E, G, Bb will easily cover the C#dim (if you want to add the root its on 3rd row little finger side), if i want Cdim another option over the F7 is to play D7 with the thumb
To accomadate adding 9ths C9 can be composed nicely playing C chord plus Gm.
Caug is gonna be the fly in the ointment but how often do you need that...
For me that minor 3rd/flat 7th 3rd row is worth the exchange... But i do have a leaning towards simple jazzy stuff and blues.... Simplest example is try play 'hit the road jack' without the 3rd row option... Descending bass line.. Am, Am/G, Am/F, E7
Or say something using a minor 2nd such as 'I'd rather go blind'
Hope that all helps... Show us box your interested in... Best wishes Terry

 

[debra]

I learned to play the accordion on a Crucianelli with 3+3 setup and played that for over 10 years before switching to a 2+4 setup. The 3+3 makes it a lot easier to do bass runs, and you do not miss the diminished chords nor the ability to create other "strange" chords. To build virtually all chords you need to have major third + minor third (major chord), minor third + major third (minor chord), minor third + minor third (used to create a 7th and a diminished, and finally there is major third + major third (for an augmented fifth) which no standard accordion offers at all. (There are some exceptional ones that use the 6th bass row for an augmented fifth instead of a diminished, and it is a bit of a shock when you first play one of these, so I heard as I have no personal experience with them.)
For some complex chords you may need a different combination of buttons, but as you have the three main combinations of thirds it's possible to create the same combined chords (and the same augmented fifth chord of two major thirds is still impossible).

 

[jozz]

I find it costs me a moment or two to get used the position of the root row, going back and forth between both systems

besides that, some common progressions are easier to finger

 

[debra]

I find it costs me a moment or two to get used the position of the root row, going back and forth between both systems
...

I have that with a collection of 2+4 accordions as well: the distance from the "edge" of the accordion to the root row isn't the same on all 2+4 accordions... And if you add a convertor in the mix with C and F marked with the same dimple as the root C, including markings on the 4rd melody bass row... you are sunk: the G-major chord is a melody bass C and is very close to the "root" C of standard bass...

 

[craigd]

Thanks for the quick and thorough replies. Another aspect of the accordion is that it is B griff. (Losthobos, it's a Galanti, mmml, model name or number unknown to me.) This would be my first cba, so C or B griff are both new to me. I thought I would end up with C griff because it is more common here, though still relatively rare. Any reason to prefer one to the other? I know this is different topic, and already well covered, but since I have you guys here...

 

[losthobos]

I play C griff but knowing what i know now i wish I'd gone for B but to late in the day to retrain...
B griff allows you to slip a finger of a flat third downhill onto a third... As a piano player would...
C griff this is an uphill movemt so takes to fingers as opposed to one to make a soft slurred transition
Just my opinion....

 

[Alan Sharkis]

Hmmm. As the owner of a Roland FR-4x, I can choose from a variety of left- hand layouts by changing one setting. If I had a 4xb instead of a 4x, I could also choose from six cba layouts, but since I never tried to play any cba layout, I’m sure I’d probably gravitate to a pa instrument. Wouldn’t that also be true for left- hand layouts?

 

[dan]

The button version of the Roland would give you the opportunity to try French bass with two different voicing for seventh chords, as well as various free bass layouts, and c griff or b griff on treble. I’ve briefly played with a few different options on my 1xb but so far have stuck to the same layout as my acoustic accordion, although I am learning free bass mode.

 

[craigd]

I play C griff but knowing what i know now i wish I'd gone for B but to late in the day to retrain...
B griff allows you to slip a finger of a flat third downhill onto a third... As a piano player would...
C griff this is an uphill movemt so takes to fingers as opposed to one to make a soft slurred transition
Just my opinion....

Tried both systems over the last two days and c griff definitely feels more natural but maybe I'm doing something wrong? With c griff my hand position feels more like it does on piano accordion and the thumb is easily used. With b griff I feel I need to hold my elbow higher and twist my wrist downwards. Now this is just exploring the keyboards trying some chromatic runs and major scales, not actually playing music. Does this match other people's experiences with b griff and if so, how long does it take to get used to it?

 

[AccordionUprising]

I shouldn't speak up–with no ability as a player–but I've always heard that b-griff was easier for melody playing, while c-griff was easier to finger chords. But the trade-off seems less important than "what is more available here." Occasionally I hear about people switching, or wanting to switch, but almost never with enough passion to put in the trouble.

 

[debra]

Tried both systems over the last two days and c griff definitely feels more natural but maybe I'm doing something wrong? With c griff my hand position feels more like it does on piano accordion and the thumb is easily used. With b griff I feel I need to hold my elbow higher and twist my wrist downwards. Now this is just exploring the keyboards trying some chromatic runs and major scales, not actually playing music. Does this match other people's experiences with b griff and if so, how long does it take to get used to it?

C griff feeling more "natural" when you transition from piano accordion to button is also what I heard, and my own experience confirms that is feels a bit natural, but I have no experience with B griff to actually compare.
I don't believe there is any significant difference regarding melody playing versus chords. There is a bit of a difference in hand position/orientation that appears to make C griff easier on the hand/wrist in the lower-notes half of the keyboard and easier with B griff on the high-notes half of the keyboard, but as the keyboards are quite compact this is not significant.

But... as this thread was actually about the bass system, there is a significant downside with the 3+3 layout when you want to move to a convertor. The Palmer/Quint convertor assumes you start with 2+4 and replicates the Stradella layout of the 2 rows of base notes to the other rows (each time an octave higher). I don't know how that would go when you start from a 3+3. I have seen an accordion (being played) that has 3+3 and then a chromatic convertor. Two issues there: in the standard-bass setup the C was moved several rows up for some technical reason I do not know, and that makes playing the 3+3 very different from what you have on a non-convertor accordion, and second: the melody bass only has the 3 rows (from the chords) to work with. All in all, 3+3 is less useful for a convertor accordion, so I would only recommend it to people who have no intention to ever move to convertor.

 

[craigd]

Thanks everyone for all that helpful info. I came to understand that the 3/3 bass system (and b griff) could work fine for me, but I have decided not to purchase the 3/3 accordion for other reasons. It's a beautiful instrument, very well priced and in great condition but after I spent about an hour with it, I still found it awkward. It is compact for a 55 note 4 reed instrument, but still bulky - very deep and my left hand had trouble negotiating the basses. More time would have helped i'm sure, but I had to base my decision on that experience. Instead, I am looking at an unusual little 37 note Pigini that I will ask about in another thread. Thanks again.