Accordion body shape and tone

[Ignacchitti]

As one can promptly notice when comparing accordions, some have a more boxy shape with right angles and parallel lines, and others have a different shape with lines that are not parallel.

I wonder if you notice tone differences based on this kind of design. I heard on a podcast that some manufacturers intentionally played with these angles in order to increase the lows, reduce the treble and overtones, etc. for instance, elongating the base of the grille (I mean the part closest to the keyboard) or elongating the cassotto before it reaches the grille. In which case the final shape would not have right angles and parallel lines anymore.

Thoughts?





Note: The images above are merely to illustrate it, not to compare these 2 particular brands. Especially because in each of these 2 brands one can find variations in shape across years/models. Same goes for many other brands.

 

[Ventura]

the most fundamental issue with reflection as it relates to re-inforcing or
smoothing out overall frequency response
(assuming that relatively flat is the ideal, so that all frequencies have
equal energy and reach, or at least less noticeable peaks and drops)
is to have all angles, flat planes, lengths and widths etc... that can affect
the entire response, to be slightly different at least, and significantly
different if possible. Then there is the question of originally varnished or bare,
hardess or smoothness of any wood surface, the amount of exposed
felting or leather, shape of the grill opening and other escape routes
for the air to carry sound

each angle and surface will cause some frequency to be affected,
which is why a square speaker cabinet is the worst possible design,
as all surfaces and angles favor or reduce the same frequency range.

then, while there are no resonant surfaces in an accordion acting like
a sound board on a Piano or Guitar, the overall unique sum of the
result of any one body form/design/template is certanly part of the
overall uniqueness and relative "perfection" of the legendary models.

this is why i hold to the postion that you will NEVER see a new Petosa,
PanCordion, Gabbanelli, Scandalli, or many others, equal to the originals,
simply because the body forms were lost to disaster, bankrupcy, or short sightedness.
and the new body forms simply are different

neverthless, the very nice similar looking with a good sales pitch models and brands
offered that are purchased by wealthy people based on their former glory
and fame rather than their actual "perfection" is still a big business

 

[John Doe]

The reflections surely have an effect- but the volume of the various spaces is the predominant factor in resonant frequencies. In an accordion where the volume of the body changes to a huge extent during play and where reflections from bass foundation plate to RH foundation plate change as the relative angles of the LH and RH sections change it's a complex mess to analyse. Most plain relecting surfaces are broken up to an extreme degree by assorted hardware- to include the huge effect of the blocks themselves- in the interior. The interactions of the assorted pallet openings - way different in casotto and "normal" reed sets- and of course the grill designs; with the lurking substantial structure of the switching mechanisms behind them.

Most grills seem, to be designed so that they LOOK like they have thoughtful effects (Marketing-from the Titano "TubeChambers" through the PanCordion slots, and the Brevetto cups (which really do have a mute effect especially affecting the upper partials )) but -mutes aside- by the time the sound makes it there it's already pretty well "like it's gonna sound".

Before you send the hate posts- take a couple of seconds and play your instrument without the grill in place. A little brighter to the player but from a few feet away difficult to tell the difference in many cases.

Sadly, I take the properties of the classic lost secret accordion body work as kinda sorta akin to Captain Kidd's buried treasure- still buried under a strip mall McDonalds on the Joisey shore. The wonderful instruments of the past are largely based upon experience, trial and error, and a "We can't coherently explain why, but we've always done it that way and it works best."

Something else- or a refinement- or a fully repeatable precision in workmanship- might work better. No way to tell but to try it. Differences between seemingly identical parts on the same model from the same factory on the same day might mean one is worse, just as likely that one is better, most likely that they might sound different- but probably not enough to tell even head to head absent a real substantial difference.

None of that saying I don't yearn for a Scandalli Super Six, Or a Gola, or tenor Selmer Mark Six, or Stradivarius violin (which I could only look at as I don't play one).

But those all feature that ephemeral sound which exists only in the head and heart. Real world modern top of the lines almost certainly do as well or better in any cold, hard, measurable metrics.




PS Sorry for what are almost certainly dozens of typos. I proofed it twice but my cataract adventures did not go as well as the intrepid down-under gentleman's.

 

[John Doe]

And, despite lines and lines of semi-incoherent prose above I failed- as often happens when I get wrapped around the axle- to even answer the OP's question.

It is my opinion (wait for it) that the shape internally and externally to include the interiors of the reed blocks and the external grill has an effect on the sound. Beyond broad brush effects, just how to really put those all together "just so" is not currently in the realm of the knowable nor was it ever fully known.

My opinion plus five quarters will get you a dollar- whoever you're cashing it in with will probably exact a 20% fee for putting up with the opinion...

 

[Ignacchitti]

Sadly, I take the properties of the classic lost secret accordion body work as kinda sorta akin to Captain Kidd's buried treasure- still buried under a strip mall McDonalds on the Joisey shore. The wonderful instruments of the past are largely based upon experience, trial and error, and a "We can't coherently explain why, but we've always done it that way and it works best."

That's what I think too.

I think there are (at least) 5 ways a design change can go:

1. Make a design change without an expectation to change tone (such as just wanting to beautify the grille)

a. in fact it did not change the tone​

b. it did somehow change it though​

2. Make a design change with an expectation to change tone

a. it did not change it though​

b. in fact it did change it in the way expected​

c. it did change something but not exactly what/how you expected​

My guess is that many, if not most, changes fall under 1b and 2c.

Anecdote from the musical world of Japanese instruments: For premium models they take days and days carving an intricate texture on the wood surface on the inside (chamber part) of the instruments (called ayasugi), convinced that it "improves" the tone compared to a smooth surface. It's been proven clearly that that super time-consuming carving itself has an absolutely negligible effect, yet the instruments with the carving do sound better. How can that be? It's a simple correlation: they only do the carvings on the instruments for which the best kind of wood was selected to begin with. The better tone comes from the wood quality, not from the carvings. If you talk to a master artisan they will still tell you that the carving does wonders for the sound...

 

[murathan]

It will make an effect, especially the grille but the effect will be very tiny.

 

[Dingo40]

but my cataract adventures did not go as well as the intrepid down-under gentleman's.

Sorry to hear that : my sympathies.

 

[debra]

Ideally the shape of the body, grille and register mechanism is to make for a very even sound distribution from all reeds on all reed blocks.
The first thing that gets in the way is the register mechanism. The sound of the reeds under the register mechanism gets partly blocked and diverted. On some accordions it's not just the register mechanism but also the keyboard that covers some of the reed blocks, like in Dak's Hohner Artiste D-series accordion. That blocking by the keyboard is deliberate, to generate a cassotto-like effect for the L reeds placed there. In later Hohner Artiste accordions (without cassotto) this was abandoned but a reed block was still covered by the keyboard and registers which resulted in a very uneven sound (timbre). The best attempt at getting an even sound imho was done with the Hohner Morino M series, the ones with the "domino" registers, not blocking the sound coming out of the cassotto.
The effect of the grille is also important, as can be heard especially in the Giulietti accordions with the mostly solid grille with large oval cutout. This made the sound very uneven on non-cassotto instruments (sound of black keys blocked and sound of white keys getting through), but intensified the cassotto effect in the cassotto instruments (cassotto sound blocked and non-cassotto reeds coming through.
Many recent accordions have a grille designed to be as open as possible, which results in all these accordions looking alike. And on accordions that didn't follow that trend, players just play with the grille removed, following the example by Richard Galliano.
In the end, it is hard to determine exactly what makes for the specific sound of certain accordions, especially when that sound is still mostly there with the grille removed. To this date I still don't understand what causes the M reeds of a Morino (N and S series, made by Excelsior) to sound more mellow than the L reeds, whereas most other Italian accordions (with cassotto) have the L reeds sounding more mellow than the M reeds.

 

[John Doe]

Having squandered countless hours on sound/tone improving/changing work on trumpets/clarinets/saxophones and flutes, at the end of the day my conclusion is that the elephant in the room is the ability to reliably do an after the fact meaningful A/B blind comparison.

Psychological "expect it to sound better" effects color how I hear things- and problbly do the same for most folks. Major changes (IE the Breveto cup mutes., really cheezy reeds, malfunctions of valves et al) aside, most of the more delicate and painstaking adjustment mechanical work is just damnably difficult to quantify. There's so much going on in what affects an accordion's sound that just what does what at a micro level is really still an unknown.

Won't stop me from tinkering of course...




PS To Dingo40- thanks, it is what it is and one lives with what one has. Just no point in whining. Big impact is on driving and... proofing off the screen.