snavoyosky
Member
Ginny asked
<<
I have a question or request, can you direct me or tell me what the casing's (the box itself) effect on sound is. The wax? the wood that the reeds rest on and that sort of thing. In clarinets the actual material makes no difference to the sound, only the quality of the finish of the bore and the bore's shape.
Steve stated:
>>
As far as the vibrant qualities of the wood---much less with the application of celluloid. Wood housing helped catalytically in the past (dependent on construction methods) until it was decided to cover the wood to protect it from damages. Subsequently, designs of housings incorporated interior resonance and air control features. My best analogy to show housing qualities is when one makes a concertina (the four-sided kind like a bandoneon) larger in size but instead of square, more rectangular like a small accordion. That concertina will take on the sound qualities of the accordion due to the resonating cavity and air control and air pressure.
ginny<<
The wax?
Steve Stated<<
Depending on the quality of materials that go in it and the knowledge of the one making it with the appropriate formula....at the time. Accordion wax can differ tremendously depending on where you buy it.
I've made my own at times unless I could acquire what I was looking for from someone---with all the pertinent qualities required to hold that reed plate solid. I've even rendered bee's wax myself. So you ask what effect it has on the sound? Well, the more solid and fixed the reed plate is to the reedblock, the higher quality of reed tongue projection. My self prepared wax was so adhesive, that if you took a screw driver shank, placed inside a large bass reed and tried to lift it out---you failed. Even with the exterior wax removed around the plate, it took effort. Now that holding power contributes greatly to the overall sound quality---much like why the Russians place their reed tongues on one plate. With strong wax, you don't need that method.
Ginny
<<
the wood that the reeds rest on and that sort of thing.
>>
Steve stated:
<<
The wood is but one consideration. Close grain is best and spruce does a good job, but I don't follow that route all the way. However, there's much more before you can hope for the best and that's the actual construction of the entire block and especially its design. I've experienced several nationalities wanting certain brands of accordion for their particular reasons, but mostly it has to do with design as well as materials. Engineering is the key to making the best features.
ginny
<<
In clarinets the actual material makes no difference to the sound, only the quality of the finish of the bore and the bore's shape.
>>
Steve stated:
<<
Since I am familiar with a clarinet having minored in college on one and performed later on, I have to differ with this. Metal clarinets, plastic clarinets, and wood clarinets all sport their own sound.....again by it's vibrating material. Wood is more vibrant and 'does' help in the overall sound--depending on design, once again.
True, the bore had a critical position and it was always the area I viewed when selecting a clarinet---that design...that resonating design, both inside and outside of the clarinet. Perhaps you are familiar with the inside countersinking of the tone holes to cause a better resonance? Many performers have had their instrument modified to incorporate this feature. But you see---it's the design and materials in every instrument that makes it what it is. With all my years as a studio musician, I never settled on playing a stock instrument---(right from the factory to the dealer). I've always had it either 'doctored' or special built to suit my taste and needs.
As a clarinet is not a clarinet---an accordion is not an accordion......meaning they are not all alike....even the same model.
--
Steve Navoyosky
***************************************************************
17 years ago
ginny wrote:
<<
Thank you for all the information, I've understood most of it but will
reread it later as well. I will keep it for my 'archives' as I did your
information on staccatto and bellows.
--
****************************************************************
17 years ago
Theodore M. Kloba wrote:
<<
There are a few other parameters that are often overlooked that I've
experimented with and found to make a difference as well:
*The material type and thickness of the pads on the pallets. I think
accordions use a felt/leather combination that's about 0.1" thick.
Bandoneons use a thin leather only pad that's 0.03"-0.05" thick.
That's why the pallets need to be hinged to ensure a tight seal is
maintained as the material becomes compressed over time.
>>
Theodore, this is familiar grounds for the accordion because what you described for Bandoneon was how the accordion started. The 'hinging' was the same as it is today for accordions....at the fulcrum under the keys. Later a factory decided to place 'two' leathers on the pallet--back to back in order to silence the action. Still later that second leather was replaced with a thin piece of felt. As years passed and the foundation plate changed from wood to metal, the felt thickness also changed. Since then there have been many concepts such as split pallets, hollow pallets, and divided pallets, all contributing to the silencing of the 'thud.'
Now in reading your comment about Bandoneon pallets needing 'hinged' I take it you mean where the spring is located..near the pallet. Is this true? If so, it's because of the button dip but moreso in order to keep the pallets in place on it's aperture. Yes, it keeps a tight seal as well.
I had Excelsior build according to my specifications and my pallets do not have felt but surgical sponge and they have been there since 1952 without crumbling. There's a "secret" to this as to why and it goes further into my design and specs.
Kloba asked:
<<
*Material type and thickness of the valveboard in combination with the
base of the reedblock. In bandoneons and many chemnitzers (some
bayans too?), there is no base to the reedblock. Incidentally (Tom
Tonon chime in if you're around) this also affects pitch, which is why
a reedblock outside the instrument on a tuning bellows will sound at a
slightly different pitch from what it will inside the instrument.
If you except this, then explain how a Hohner with a thin cardboard
shoe will sound certain off-pitch reeds inside the box but not on the
provino. Explain too how some reeds are identical in pitch inside or
outside the instrument on some brands.
I've found that it has nothing to do with the reedblock shoe at all.
Steve:
<<
*How the reedblocks are attached to the valveboard. Again in
bandoneons and many chemnitzers, they are glued directly down.
Accordions, melodeons, etc., have also had this feature for many many
years in the past but only to allow the air to pour into both banks of
reeds instead of separate compartments. Whenever the foundation was
wood, this was done also to provide amplitude as well as reed
responsiveness.
Kloba
<<
*Surface and resonant properties of materials under the grille, including all metal, wood, etc.
SJN replied:
<<
Are you speaking of Bandoneon or Accordion here? In accordions, the 'new-improved' features brought into play back in the thirties eliminated the soundboard by the use of metal plates for switching. While the bells and whistles became a circus for the player...... they failed to listen beyond the multiple sounds they received. The Bandoneon kept its sound and I salute them for it. The accordion however, became a machine of ornamentation in an attempt to be all things to all players. And so we came to the place of many sounds from many players and the public began to wonder---"which is the true sound?"
Ernie Felice used the middle reed predominantly, while van Damme and Mooney used the low reed predominantly. Magnante used most of the combinations as did John Molinari. Tito Guidotti used low and high reeds together predominantly. Polka players use master and all high reeds in their presentation, and the old-time French players did their musette (out of tune) and bal musette sounds. Of course it's a multi-sound instrument, but from the mid-30s, the accordion sound changed just as the mechanism changed, design changed, materials changed, and the player changed. The Bandoneon maintained its tradition as did the other mentioned instruments.
In any event and it's my personal opinon, that the same used sound, like those I mentioned above, contributes to stagnation and boredom. My opinion only, but even back in the old days, the accordion had a stronger character with it's LM, M, MMM, and LMMM. Before that it was LMMM and MMM.
(But look where it's going back to----LMM and MM)
<<
I find it amusing when accordion enthusiasts and English-construction concertina enthusiasts say that Chemnitzers sound like accordions. To me, only the lowest-quality ones do. As in the 'eyes of the beholder' so shall it be...the 'ears of the beholder.'
(SNIP)
--
Steve Navoyosky
<<
I have a question or request, can you direct me or tell me what the casing's (the box itself) effect on sound is. The wax? the wood that the reeds rest on and that sort of thing. In clarinets the actual material makes no difference to the sound, only the quality of the finish of the bore and the bore's shape.
Steve stated:
>>
As far as the vibrant qualities of the wood---much less with the application of celluloid. Wood housing helped catalytically in the past (dependent on construction methods) until it was decided to cover the wood to protect it from damages. Subsequently, designs of housings incorporated interior resonance and air control features. My best analogy to show housing qualities is when one makes a concertina (the four-sided kind like a bandoneon) larger in size but instead of square, more rectangular like a small accordion. That concertina will take on the sound qualities of the accordion due to the resonating cavity and air control and air pressure.
ginny<<
The wax?
Steve Stated<<
Depending on the quality of materials that go in it and the knowledge of the one making it with the appropriate formula....at the time. Accordion wax can differ tremendously depending on where you buy it.
I've made my own at times unless I could acquire what I was looking for from someone---with all the pertinent qualities required to hold that reed plate solid. I've even rendered bee's wax myself. So you ask what effect it has on the sound? Well, the more solid and fixed the reed plate is to the reedblock, the higher quality of reed tongue projection. My self prepared wax was so adhesive, that if you took a screw driver shank, placed inside a large bass reed and tried to lift it out---you failed. Even with the exterior wax removed around the plate, it took effort. Now that holding power contributes greatly to the overall sound quality---much like why the Russians place their reed tongues on one plate. With strong wax, you don't need that method.
Ginny
<<
the wood that the reeds rest on and that sort of thing.
>>
Steve stated:
<<
The wood is but one consideration. Close grain is best and spruce does a good job, but I don't follow that route all the way. However, there's much more before you can hope for the best and that's the actual construction of the entire block and especially its design. I've experienced several nationalities wanting certain brands of accordion for their particular reasons, but mostly it has to do with design as well as materials. Engineering is the key to making the best features.
ginny
<<
In clarinets the actual material makes no difference to the sound, only the quality of the finish of the bore and the bore's shape.
>>
Steve stated:
<<
Since I am familiar with a clarinet having minored in college on one and performed later on, I have to differ with this. Metal clarinets, plastic clarinets, and wood clarinets all sport their own sound.....again by it's vibrating material. Wood is more vibrant and 'does' help in the overall sound--depending on design, once again.
True, the bore had a critical position and it was always the area I viewed when selecting a clarinet---that design...that resonating design, both inside and outside of the clarinet. Perhaps you are familiar with the inside countersinking of the tone holes to cause a better resonance? Many performers have had their instrument modified to incorporate this feature. But you see---it's the design and materials in every instrument that makes it what it is. With all my years as a studio musician, I never settled on playing a stock instrument---(right from the factory to the dealer). I've always had it either 'doctored' or special built to suit my taste and needs.
As a clarinet is not a clarinet---an accordion is not an accordion......meaning they are not all alike....even the same model.
--
Steve Navoyosky
***************************************************************
17 years ago
ginny wrote:
<<
Thank you for all the information, I've understood most of it but will
reread it later as well. I will keep it for my 'archives' as I did your
information on staccatto and bellows.
--
****************************************************************
17 years ago
Theodore M. Kloba wrote:
<<
There are a few other parameters that are often overlooked that I've
experimented with and found to make a difference as well:
*The material type and thickness of the pads on the pallets. I think
accordions use a felt/leather combination that's about 0.1" thick.
Bandoneons use a thin leather only pad that's 0.03"-0.05" thick.
That's why the pallets need to be hinged to ensure a tight seal is
maintained as the material becomes compressed over time.
>>
Theodore, this is familiar grounds for the accordion because what you described for Bandoneon was how the accordion started. The 'hinging' was the same as it is today for accordions....at the fulcrum under the keys. Later a factory decided to place 'two' leathers on the pallet--back to back in order to silence the action. Still later that second leather was replaced with a thin piece of felt. As years passed and the foundation plate changed from wood to metal, the felt thickness also changed. Since then there have been many concepts such as split pallets, hollow pallets, and divided pallets, all contributing to the silencing of the 'thud.'
Now in reading your comment about Bandoneon pallets needing 'hinged' I take it you mean where the spring is located..near the pallet. Is this true? If so, it's because of the button dip but moreso in order to keep the pallets in place on it's aperture. Yes, it keeps a tight seal as well.
I had Excelsior build according to my specifications and my pallets do not have felt but surgical sponge and they have been there since 1952 without crumbling. There's a "secret" to this as to why and it goes further into my design and specs.
Kloba asked:
<<
*Material type and thickness of the valveboard in combination with the
base of the reedblock. In bandoneons and many chemnitzers (some
bayans too?), there is no base to the reedblock. Incidentally (Tom
Tonon chime in if you're around) this also affects pitch, which is why
a reedblock outside the instrument on a tuning bellows will sound at a
slightly different pitch from what it will inside the instrument.
If you except this, then explain how a Hohner with a thin cardboard
shoe will sound certain off-pitch reeds inside the box but not on the
provino. Explain too how some reeds are identical in pitch inside or
outside the instrument on some brands.
I've found that it has nothing to do with the reedblock shoe at all.
Steve:
<<
*How the reedblocks are attached to the valveboard. Again in
bandoneons and many chemnitzers, they are glued directly down.
Accordions, melodeons, etc., have also had this feature for many many
years in the past but only to allow the air to pour into both banks of
reeds instead of separate compartments. Whenever the foundation was
wood, this was done also to provide amplitude as well as reed
responsiveness.
Kloba
<<
*Surface and resonant properties of materials under the grille, including all metal, wood, etc.
SJN replied:
<<
Are you speaking of Bandoneon or Accordion here? In accordions, the 'new-improved' features brought into play back in the thirties eliminated the soundboard by the use of metal plates for switching. While the bells and whistles became a circus for the player...... they failed to listen beyond the multiple sounds they received. The Bandoneon kept its sound and I salute them for it. The accordion however, became a machine of ornamentation in an attempt to be all things to all players. And so we came to the place of many sounds from many players and the public began to wonder---"which is the true sound?"
Ernie Felice used the middle reed predominantly, while van Damme and Mooney used the low reed predominantly. Magnante used most of the combinations as did John Molinari. Tito Guidotti used low and high reeds together predominantly. Polka players use master and all high reeds in their presentation, and the old-time French players did their musette (out of tune) and bal musette sounds. Of course it's a multi-sound instrument, but from the mid-30s, the accordion sound changed just as the mechanism changed, design changed, materials changed, and the player changed. The Bandoneon maintained its tradition as did the other mentioned instruments.
In any event and it's my personal opinon, that the same used sound, like those I mentioned above, contributes to stagnation and boredom. My opinion only, but even back in the old days, the accordion had a stronger character with it's LM, M, MMM, and LMMM. Before that it was LMMM and MMM.
(But look where it's going back to----LMM and MM)
<<
I find it amusing when accordion enthusiasts and English-construction concertina enthusiasts say that Chemnitzers sound like accordions. To me, only the lowest-quality ones do. As in the 'eyes of the beholder' so shall it be...the 'ears of the beholder.'
(SNIP)
--
Steve Navoyosky
