Accordions for Silent Practice?

[Dint]

I'm going to be heading off to university soon and I was wondering what a good accordion for practicing in dorms would be. I doubt people would want to hear the accordion all day, so something that I could play quietly would be nice. I was looking online and a midi iorio accorgan looks pretty much perfect. I assume I can use headphones with it if I get an adapter, and having an acoustic accordion in addition is always nice. My question really is just is this a good idea? A roland is out of my budget unless I were to buy a smaller one, but I really appreciate having a full size accordion.
I've read a lot of criticisms towards accorgans and don't want to jump the gun on buying one and regretting it. I'm also not entirely sure if it works the way I'm thinking. I'm pretty sure some accordions simply pick up the sound it's already making, so it's not entirely silent. For one like in this video, it's entirely synthesized right?

 

[Alan Sharkis]

If you can find a used reed-less accordion you’d also have the advantage of a lighter weight instrument. If not, and you find an acoustic accordion with MIDI, make sure that it has mutes like the Iorio in the video you posted. Otherwise, you’ll have to strap the bellows closed and control dynamics with a pedal.

 

[Ben-jammin]

Well, a basic midi accordion will require an addition module to covert the midi to a sound to be used with headphones and only some newer more advanced midi systems have bellow dynamics control (not all new midi systems are built with it). I would guess an expression pedal would be needed with that Iorio to be able to modulate the volume in real time. That’s not to say it invalidates practicing with such an arrangement. You might want to check with the university as they may have a space available for music practice that you can use an acoustic at regular volume. Sometimes when I travel for work I bring a reedless midi accordion to practice with and using the one I have without bellows dynamic control gets old really quick. Though I do notice some changes in how I approach things when I have those limitations and it helps out generally in my playing (I think).

 

[JerryPH]

This is where the Roland V-accordions shine.

 

[pentaprism]

This is where the Roland V-accordions shine.

Agree.

For silent practice, IMHO, nothing beats Roland V-accordions.

Some may argue that V-accordions are not accordions. To those, I’d say that V-accordions are as close to accordions as one can get for silent practice.

Not to mention all the fun they offer….

Disclosure: I’m a sucker for silent musical instruments. I have a Roland FR-7b, a Roland FR-1x, a Yamaha SLG-200WN, a MOOV Travel Guitar Classic, and an Akai EWI-4000s.

Edit to add: forgot to mention a Yamaha CVP-805. But my wife, not I, plays it.

 

[Ben-jammin]

I think it should also be pointed out the accorgan in the video is not described to be “midi” in the video description and to my eyes appears to possibly be from a generation before midi was an option. I didn’t watch the whole thing to confirm. Early generations of accorgans were built before midi was invented and use proprietary electronics which at their current age are finicky. I believe it was series H that had midi out as an option built into the sound generator. later generations only transmitted midi (and didn’t include a proprietary sound generator). I believe the models known as the Syntara II had just midi but no bellows dynamics.

I have a Iorio accorgan that is the same as an elkavox 77 and have an aftermarket adapter that replaces the sound generator to convert it to midi. It works well enough but take into account there’s no bellows dynamics with that old technology and there are some goofball functionality that changes the output channels when different selectors are pressed.

To me the most important feature of midi combined with an acoustic accordion is to provide bass sounds for the left hand. For this application bellows dynamics control can be less critical (sometimes it’s nice to have left and right hand volume to be independent) But when you’re using the right hand midi, not being able to control dynamics can be more of a problem.

If I were you I would try to find some budget for a 3x or a 4x. I have an SEM ciao and it’s ok to practice with but it’s kind of limited and I think at the prices they are at, not a great value compared with the Roland’s.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

I think it should also be pointed out the accorgan in the video is not described to be “midi” in the video description and to my eyes appears to possibly be from a generation before midi was an option. I didn’t watch the whole thing to confirm. Early generations of accorgans were built before midi was invented and use proprietary electronics which at their current age are finicky. I believe it was series H that had midi out as an option built into the sound generator. later generations only transmitted midi (and didn’t include a proprietary sound generator). I believe the models known as the Syntara II had just midi but no bellows dynamics.

I have a Iorio accorgan that is the same as an elkavox 77 and have an aftermarket adapter that replaces the sound generator to convert it to midi. It works well enough but take into account there’s no bellows dynamics with that old technology and there are some goofball functionality that changes the output channels when different selectors are pressed.

To me the most important feature of midi combined with an acoustic accordion is to provide bass sounds for the left hand. For this application bellows dynamics control can be less critical (sometimes it’s nice to have left and right hand volume to be independent) But when you’re using the right hand midi, not being able to control dynamics can be more of a problem.

If I were you I would try to find some budget for a 3x or a 4x. I have an SEM ciao and it’s ok to practice with but it’s kind of limited and I think at the prices they are at, not a great value compared with the Roland’s.

Hmmm. I had a SEM Ciao that I traded in for an acoustic with midi. I bought the midi more for the treble sounds than for the bass because a a group of guys I was playing with needed instrumental sounds we didn’t have. But that discussion doesn’t help a kid who’s going off to college and needs an accordion for silent practice with little money to spare.

Although Rolands might be ideal for silent practice, they are bound to be more expensive than he can handle, even used. I’ve seen used SEM Ciao reedless accordions pop up here and there for about $2K, but even that might be more than he can spend. The same might be true for used Music Tech reedless accordions.

I’m going to suggest a couple of places for him to try.

 

[Tom]

Liberty Bellows has an FR1 for $2000. Maybe smaller than he thinks he needs though.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

I'm going to be heading off to university soon and I was wondering what a good accordion for practicing in dorms would be. I doubt people would want to hear the accordion all day, so something that I could play quietly would be nice. I was looking online and a midi iorio accorgan looks pretty much perfect. I assume I can use headphones with it if I get an adapter, and having an acoustic accordion in addition is always nice. My question really is just is this a good idea? A roland is out of my budget unless I were to buy a smaller one, but I really appreciate having a full size accordion.
I've read a lot of criticisms towards accorgans and don't want to jump the gun on buying one and regretting it. I'm also not entirely sure if it works the way I'm thinking. I'm pretty sure some accordions simply pick up the sound it's already making, so it's not entirely silent. For one like in this video, it's entirely synthesized right?

Try the same company that posted the video. It’s Liberty Bellows in Philadelphia, and they have a constantly changing stock of used accordions. Tell them that you need an accordion for silent practice and what your budget allows. Their website is:
www.libertybellows.com

and their phone number and email address are on the homepage of their website, just below the search bar.

If they can’t help you, you might also try Accordion Gallery in New Jersey, although they seem to be a bit more expensive, depending on what you select. Their website is:

www.accordiongallery.com

On their homepage, on the left, there is a black box. The bottom item in that box is Contact. Click on it, and then, to the right, will be their email address and phone number. Again, explain what you need and what you can afford.

Good Luck!

 

[Ben-jammin]

Hmmm. I had a SEM Ciao that I traded in for an acoustic with midi. I bought the midi more for the treble sounds than for the bass because a a group of guys I was playing with needed instrumental sounds we didn’t have. But that discussion doesn’t help a kid who’s going off to college and needs an accordion for silent practice with little money to spare.

Although Rolands might be ideal for silent practice, they are bound to be more expensive than he can handle, even used. I’ve seen used SEM Ciao reedless accordions pop up here and there for about $2K, but even that might be more than he can spend. The same might be true for used Music Tech reedless accordions.

I’m going to suggest a couple of places for him to try.

There’s currently a used fr3x on eBay for $2100.

 

[Dint]

Well, a basic midi accordion will require an addition module to covert the midi to a sound to be used with headphones and only some newer more advanced midi systems have bellow dynamics control (not all new midi systems are built with it). I would guess an expression pedal would be needed with that Iorio to be able to modulate the volume in real time. That’s not to say it invalidates practicing with such an arrangement. You might want to check with the university as they may have a space available for music practice that you can use an acoustic at regular volume. Sometimes when I travel for work I bring a reedless midi accordion to practice with and using the one I have without bellows dynamic control gets old really quick. Though I do notice some changes in how I approach things when I have those limitations and it helps out generally in my playing (I think).

Sorry for the late response. Would you say the value gotten from practice even without the bellows capabilities is worth the buy? As the other replies have said, a roland accordion would be perfect, but the full size ones (and even the smaller ones) are simply out of my budget. I believe the accordion shown in the video has a built-in midi system, as it and the one on this link seem to be the same model.

https://reverb.com/item/85104712-iorio-accorgan-midi-piano-accordion-lmm-41-120-musette-tuning

Thank you everyone for the replies and suggestions.

 

[JerryPH]

Sorry for the late response. Would you say the value gotten from practice even without the bellows capabilities is worth the buy? As the other replies have said, a roland accordion would be perfect, but the full size ones (and even the smaller ones) are simply out of my budget. I believe the accordion shown in the video has a built-in midi system, as it and the one on this link seem to be the same model.

https://reverb.com/item/85104712-iorio-accorgan-midi-piano-accordion-lmm-41-120-musette-tuning

Thank you everyone for the replies and suggestions.

Be SUPER CAREFUL. MIDI never came with these accordions by default, and would have to be an additional upgrade/addition. It would be an easy mistake for someone not in the know to mistake electronic sounds and assume it had MIDI. Verify and be 100% sure it has MIDI before purchasing. On top of that, at this level, that would likely be the first generation of MIDI, *if* it did have it, and likely has no volume control other than a volume pedal. It also would be a full sized normally heavy acoustic accordion too.

How would I know this? I own a similar model Iorio Accorgan myself.



EDIT: OK, looking at the video, he deoes NOT have MIDI, thats the standard multi-pin plug that mine has, its NOT a MIDI plug, thats the input for the volume pedal. Please note that the guy is not even using the internal electret mics to make the recording... most likely because those are not working either, and he doesn't demonstrate ANY of the internal electronics, which are likely not working... because the kinds of components used in that model broke down over time. The ones in mine did as well... through the mics DO work. You won't find ANY of this model accordion working very well on this over 50 year old accordion unless it's been well serviced. I bet you he doesn't even have the necessary volume pedal/power adapter.

This accordion also looks quite abused, the white section scratched all up, tons of scratches on it elsewhere. Mine still looks like new except for the backpad which I literally wore out ($10 part)... lol

The acoustic part is nice but not $2500US nice.

Great example of "Caveat Emptor", know your stuff and research a ton before spending your money.

 

[Ben-jammin]

Sorry for the late response. Would you say the value gotten from practice even without the bellows capabilities is worth the buy? As the other replies have said, a roland accordion would be perfect, but the full size ones (and even the smaller ones) are simply out of my budget. I believe the accordion shown in the video has a built-in midi system, as it and the one on this link seem to be the same model.

https://reverb.com/item/85104712-iorio-accorgan-midi-piano-accordion-lmm-41-120-musette-tuning

Thank you everyone for the replies and suggestions.

I’m of the opinion that any practice is better than no practice. I just want to make sure you’re aware that a basic midi system can be a compromise.

I am by no means an expert on Iorio Accorgan series. I am just aware that the early versions didn’t have midi and there were at least one generation that midi was an option that had to be ordered special. It isn’t uncommon for people to add midi to these by either custom installation or aftermarket conversion boxes. It also isn’t uncommon for someone without enough knowledge selling a late relatives accordion to assume any accordion with electronics is a “midi” accordion and mistakenly list it as such.

I don’t want to scare you off from your plan. Just make sure you well enough informed to make a reasonable decision.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

I, too, would caution you. I’ve wondered for a kong time if the peoplw at Reverb actually know anything about accordions or are just repeating whatever the sellers tell them about an item, and them I wonder if the sellers actually know. I know this sounds paranoid, but how many people find an accordion among their late uncle’s or grandfather’s things, think it’s valuable, and add whatever adjectives to its descriptjion that they think will sell it?

 

[Ben-jammin]

I, too, would caution you. I’ve wondered for a kong time if the peoplw at Reverb actually know anything about accordions or are just repeating whatever the sellers tell them about an item, and them I wonder if the sellers actually know. I know this sounds paranoid, but how many people find an accordion among their late uncle’s or grandfather’s things, think it’s valuable, and add whatever adjectives to its descriptjion that they think will sell it?

Unless a listing is reported, I don’t think reverb really touches the listings from whatever the seller has entered.

 

[JerryPH]

I’m of the opinion that any practice is better than no practice. I just want to make sure you’re aware that a basic midi system can be a compromise.

I agree... little secret, I often worked from home and on days that I had to attend long monotonous meetings, I would have the accordion in a chair beside me, and as the meetings droned on and on endlessly, I would be just sfingering off hanon exercises on the keyboard of the accordion beside me... lol

I am by no means an expert on Iorio Accorgan series. I am just aware that the early versions didn’t have midi and there were at least one generation that midi was an option that had to be ordered special.

The first factory provided MIDI by Elka/Iorio/SEM was a basic MIDI where the only options were note off and on. Mine wasn't even in the accordion but in the tone generator of the model after the one above. This the first model with available MIDI from 1984:


Here you can see under the output of the GENERAL cable, thats the MIDI out and that led to the arranger:



Fun times.

I'm also not entirely sure if it works the way I'm thinking. I'm pretty sure some accordions simply pick up the sound it's already making, so it's not entirely silent. For one like in this video, it's entirely synthesized right?

First, that video was done 12+ years ago, I can almost guarantee that this one is not even working well anymore, unless its had some work done to it. It is all analog electronic sounds, nothing digital like today.

 

[Ben-jammin]

Maybe it would be helpful to break up categories of accordions that generate sounds via electronics.

1) pre midi accordion/organs. These use electronics based on electronic organs to add sound options to acoustic organs. These generally should be avoided because most were not very reliable when new and after 40 or 50 years are even less so.

2) accordion/organs with midi. These can be a mixed bag. The organ sounds might be usable but reliability is not a given. To leverage the midi requires some additional hardware such as a midi arranger or computer running midi software to generate the additional sounds.

3) acoustic accordion with early spring contact midi system. These usually don’t have bellows dynamics control. They can be usable but require some additional hardware such as a midi arranger or computer running midi software to generate the sounds. These are at an age were components can fail.

4) acoustic accordion with later Hall effect sensor midi system. These sometimes have bellows dynamics control but not all do. These also require some additional hardware such as midi arranger or computer running midi software to generate sounds.

5) reedless midi accordion. These will most likely use Hall effect sensor based midi system and may or may not have bellows dynamics control. These require additional hardware such as midi arranger or computer running midi software to generate sounds.

6) reedless digital accordion. These will have the electronics to generate sounds in the unit. Not all of these have built in amps/speakers. They usually also have “MIDI” out.

Some notes about midi arrangers. Generally it is preferred for accordions that use midi to transmit different parts on different channels. Usually the treble keyboard is channels 1 and 4. Left hand chords on channel 2 and bass notes on channel 3. some arrangers work better than others to allow you to assign “instruments” to these channels. Some of the arrangers that work well are bulky and can be fairly costly, even used.

I have used iPhones and iPads running “soundtank” software to allow it to function as my sound generator. It works but doesn’t appear to register the midi change control message of channel “pressure change” so it ignores bellows dynamics control and plays notes at the volume set for the instrument in the program.

With all the described accordion types it’s important to know that most of these instruments were relatively low volume production and mostly used proprietary cables and power supplies. If you buy an incomplete outfit or damage a cable it can be difficult and costly to replace. I make it my policy that if the outfit is incomplete to assume there is a degree of probability it’s broken and not offer more than I’m willing to lose on a gamble that I might be able to fix it.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

I agree... little secret, I often worked from home and on days that I had to attend long monotonous meetings, I would have the accordion in a chair beside me, and as the meetings droned on and on endlessly, I would be just sfingering off hanon exercises on the keyboard of the accordion beside me... lol


The first factory provided MIDI by Elka/Iorio/SEM was a basic MIDI where the only options were note off and on. Mine wasn't even in the accordion but in the tone generator of the model after the one above. This the first model with available MIDI from 1984:


Here you can see under the output of the GENERAL cable, thats the MIDI out and that led to the arranger:



Fun times.


First, that video was done 12+ years ago, I can almost guarantee that this one is not even working well anymore, unless its had some work done to it. It is all analog electronic sounds, nothing digital like today.

Maybe it would be helpful to break up categories of accordions that generate sounds via electronics.

1) pre midi accordion/organs. These use electronics based on electronic organs to add sound options to acoustic organs. These generally should be avoided because most were not very reliable when new and after 40 or 50 years are even less so.

2) accordion/organs with midi. These can be a mixed bag. The organ sounds might be usable but reliability is not a given. To leverage the midi requires some additional hardware such as a midi arranger or computer running midi software to generate the additional sounds.

3) acoustic accordion with early spring contact midi system. These usually don’t have bellows dynamics control. They can be usable but require some additional hardware such as a midi arranger or computer running midi software to generate the sounds. These are at an age were components can fail.

4) acoustic accordion with later Hall effect sensor midi system. These sometimes have bellows dynamics control but not all do. These also require some additional hardware such as midi arranger or computer running midi software to generate sounds.

5) reedless midi accordion. These will most likely use Hall effect sensor based midi system and may or may not have bellows dynamics control. These require additional hardware such as midi arranger or computer running midi software to generate sounds.

6) reedless digital accordion. These will have the electronics to generate sounds in the unit. Not all of these have built in amps/speakers. They usually also have “MIDI” out.

Some notes about midi arrangers. Generally it is preferred for accordions that use midi to transmit different parts on different channels. Usually the treble keyboard is channels 1 and 4. Left hand chords on channel 2 and bass notes on channel 3. some arrangers work better than others to allow you to assign “instruments” to these channels. Some of the arrangers that work well are bulky and can be fairly costly, even used.

I have used iPhones and iPads running “soundtank” software to allow it to function as my sound generator. It works but doesn’t appear to register the midi change control message of channel “pressure change” so it ignores bellows dynamics control and plays notes at the volume set for the instrument in the program.

With all the described accordion types it’s important to know that most of these instruments were relatively low volume production and mostly used proprietary cables and power supplies. If you buy an incomplete outfit or damage a cable it can be difficult and costly to replace. I make it my policy that if the outfit is incomplete to assume there is a degree of probability it’s broken and not offer more than I’m willing to lose on a gamble that I might be able to fix it.

This was about as good a summary as I’ve seen. Thanks!