Alternative to bee wax to hold reeds?

[Jaime_Dergut]

Hello everybody,

today I would like to ask a simple question.

Is it bee wax the best alternative material we have in order to keep the reeds in place to the block?

I understand that wax is useful due to its physical properties, but it is also delicate to changes of temperatures, and not really available in the hardware stores.

It has been more than a 100 years since the accordion was invented. Has anyone thought on a way to improve how the reeds are attached to the instrument?

Just a humble question from a young man.

Regards,

Jaime

 

[isorry123]

If I was traveling and needed to fix a reed that had come out, and I had until dinner time to do the work - I would use the low temp hot glue.

Having heard of this situation before - it baffles me when professional accordion players travel without their repair equipment. Or if professional accordion players can’t do basic repairs on their instruments - baffling

 

[Snoopz]

Or if professional accordion players can’t do basic repairs on their instruments - baffling

I don’t think it’s „can’t“ for most professionals, but rather „won’t“ because they don’t do it every day (missing practice) and often have instruments that cost five figures (fear of damaging an asset that cannot easily be replaced)

 

[John Doe]

I'd be really wary of hot melt glue. Probably seals fine and is convenient- but stands a really excellent chance of damaging the wood as some of the block might well come off with the glue when it's pulled off later. "If" it's pulled off later at all.

Per Ventura;
"so for the benefit and protection of the amateur repair people, i truly
prefer the speculative advice of idiots to be sent into a black hole,
lest a well meaning and even rather careful normal person be fooled
into following some actually really bad, though seemingly reasonable,
advise, and then ruining their accordion."

Absolutely correct.

I initially, fount of "what to do with limited resouces on "for personal enjoyment" fairly thrify accordions ideas that I am, took some offense. Upon mulling over Ventura's comments though, I found that he is, as I see it, pretty much on the money in many regards.

I have been mechanically inclined all my life and spent decades repairing and dednting woodwinds as well as cars/motorcycles and pinball machines. I have a perfectly functional jukebox in the kitchen which uses strips of sardine cans with silver solder blobs for selector disc wiper arms. The manufacturer bit the dust decades ago and nobody makes the parts now.

But I look at assorted "just whiz the rod out and clean all your keys" posts for accordion repair"... "Accordion repair isn't rocket science" trumpets one site. A decent explanation given for someone who already is on top of things- but a potential catastrophe for someone who is challenged to adjust his metal watch band length- which encompasses much of the population. Keys pop out, springs either go hither and yon or get bent sideways, the shift mechanism under the grill has to be removed or swung out of the way and its linkages get snarled. The rod reinsertion requires a bit of a knack to engage the holes in the keys and failing that the thin wood dividers between the keys get butchered as the rod is forced in...

The bass machine really isn't particularly complicated, there's just a lot of duplication of a couple of basic mechanisms. But for someone who isn't used to working on mechanisms the potential is there for absolute mayhem after the thing is taken apart. Perhaps not rocket science but real potential for chaos beyond recovery after ignition and button rod/pipes separation...

Can you do many perfectly durable, invisible from the outside, sonically and mechanically flawless, and essentially permanent repairs to cases, blocks, and assorted mechanism supports with carbon fiber, epoxy, various glues, and assorted other non traditional bits. Beyond doubt.

Can one make a permanent and irreparable hash of an instrument which only really requires a moderate amount of proper adjustment/repair by someone who understands "how it is supposed to work"? Truly beyond doubt as well.

I try to offer detailed enough instructions and cautions when I offer "worked, worked well, promise to continue doing so" suggestions to avoid disaster when implemented by a novice- but sometimes I literally lose sleep over what the harvest from the notions I have sown might be in the hands of someone who is neither clumsy or stupid but who lacks an adequate base of experience to do the workarounds with finesse.

Many here are quite competent mechanically, if not particularly imbued with knowledge of how accordions function. They should be fine. Others are in the "take my wristwatch to the jeweler to get the battery replaced" camp. Fine folks- akin to yours truly and smartphone screen three fingered lefthanded diagonal swipes while standing on one leg technique- but they might well consider approaching completely unfamilar tasks with potentially permanent seriously wrong outcomes with an entire cellar of salt.

What you don't know CAN hurt you.


Apologies for sloppy proofing/ typos.

 

[Dingo40]

Has anyone thought on a way to improve how the reeds are attached to the instrument?

If it works, don't fix it?
Some instruments use special nails, in addition.
Otherwise, the field is, probably, wide open to innovators .

 

[Tor]

In any attempt to come up with something better than the wax mix that has been in use for a century or more, there are two very important properties that it has, both of which are very commonly missing from modern materials, which typically means plastic based (and yes, "carbon fiber" is among these, not that you'd use it for the purpose in the OP.)

1.  Wax is reversible, meaning you can remove it later without damaging the wood.
2.  Wax will perfectly bond to old wax remaining on the wood.

For those interested, these two properties are shared by hide glue, which is why, despite it has never, and probably will never fade from use in a variety of applications.  String instruments, which must be taken apart for some repairs are among these.  Were I needing to repair the wood of my accordion, I would look first to hide glue, and only choose another adhesive if it seemed necessary.

 

[debra]

I don’t think it’s „can’t“ for most professionals, but rather „won’t“ because they don’t do it every day (missing practice) and often have instruments that cost five figures (fear of damaging an asset that cannot easily be replaced)

My experience is that it is mostly "in the West" that professional accordion players do not dare to touch the insides of their expensive professional accordions and rely on a professional repairer for even the smallest problem. Players from the former Soviet Union learn to do repairs themselves out of necessity because things tend to go wrong more often on their bayans and they do not have easy access to repairers. Some even start out by learning how to do repairs so they can fix an old clunker before they can start learning to play (at professional level).
Think of it a bit like with cars. People with a Lada or Wolga car more often than not keep a tool box in their car out of necessity. With Western or Japanese cars that is seldom the case. I can replace a light bulb in my car or charge the battery but that's about it. When I have a flat I have to call for help (my car has no spare). With accordions I carry a repair kit that lets me fix most problems you encounter "on the road". People with Italian accordions may think they don't need it (as often as people with Russian bayans) but that is at least to some extent an illusion.

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

If it works, don't fix it?

Some instruments use special nails, in addition.
Otherwise, the field is, probably, wide open to innovators .

For the sake of improvements, there is always path for innovation. If the instrument is delicate to play outdoors, then we need to find ways to improve its resistance to elements, or make it easier to repair.

A 15 kid can tune up his guitar fairly easy all by himself, but he has to go with a master repairman (who, by the way, are dying out) if he wants to tune up an accordion that got a loose reed.

1.  Wax is reversible, meaning you can remove it later without damaging the wood.
2.  Wax will perfectly bond to old wax remaining on the wood.

For those interested, these two properties are shared by hide glue, which is why, despite it has never, and probably will never fade from use in a variety of applications.  String instruments, which must be taken apart for some repairs are among these.  Were I needing to repair the wood of my accordion, I would look first to hide glue, and only choose another adhesive if it seemed necessary.

Hide glue will also succumb to warmer temperatures and it seems it does not have the qualities to surpass wax. Although it might be easier to obtain. I don't know.

You could add an additional layer to the wood that is durable but also expendable, if you ever need to remove the gluing material.
Ideally, you never want to remove the gluing material, or in case you need to, it should be easy and with spare parts fairly available in a hardware store.

Of course, my idea here is focusing mainly on the reed block features, but for that I will have to understand its properties from someone who manufactures accordions, I guess.


If we could make the replacement/tightening of reeds as easy as changing a fuse in a circuit box, it will be a win.

People with Italian accordions may think they don't need it (as often as people with Russian bayans) but that is at least to some extent an illusion.

I heard from some accordion sales men that Italian accordions bass machines are rather difficult to work with since you have to take off the whole thing if you ever need to fix something in it.

But genuine German accordions (at least from Hohner) are built in a way that you can remove buttons individually without taking the whole thing out, which makes them easier to repair if needed. Also, when they ship to me my Hohner, I noticed they didn't put a cardboard layer to hold the bass machine, and they later said this was because the machine didn't need it due to it's sturdy design.

I like that. I carry my Hohner everywhere and I never have to worry about bouncing it at all, unlike my Italian accordions, and the old bayan I got. This is the kind of instrument I need/want and every young man should have.

 

[debra]

...

I heard from some accordion sales men that Italian accordions bass machines are rather difficult to work with since you have to take off the whole thing if you ever need to fix something in it.

But genuine German accordions (at least from Hohner) are built in a way that you can remove buttons individually without taking the whole thing out, which makes them easier to repair if needed. Also, when they ship to me my Hohner, I noticed they didn't put a cardboard layer to hold the bass machine, and they later said this was because the machine didn't need it due to it's sturdy design.

I like that. I carry my Hohner everywhere and I never have to worry about bouncing it at all, unlike my Italian accordions, and the old bayan I got. This is the kind of instrument I need/want and every young man should have.

Actually, with Italian bass machines you have to remove buttons individually (which can only be done in a specific order) and you cannot take out "the whole thing". If you need to get to the pallets under the mechanism you have to completely disassemble the mechanism, one button at a time...
WIth old Hohner accordions made in Germany you can take out the whole bass mechanism in one go so you don't have to work with inside the bass compartment. But that doesn't mean that working on it gets a lot easier. It does help to reach the pallets under the bass mechanism though.
Don't be fooled by the Hohner name. The "take out the whole mechanism in one go" technique does not work on accordions built for Hohner by others. Don't expect to take out the whole mechanism at once in a Hohner Gola or in the Morino and Artiste accordions from the N series onwards (made by Excelsior in Italy). And the Hohners made in China I don't know, because I hope never to touch them...

 

[JKJ]

Hide glue will also succumb to warmer temperatures and it seems it does not have the qualities to surpass wax. Although it might be easier to obtain. I don't know.

You could add an additional layer to the wood that is durable but also expendable, if you ever need to remove the gluing material.
Ideally, you never want to remove the gluing material, or in case you need to, it should be easy and with spare parts fairly available in a hardware store.

Of course, my idea here is focusing mainly on the reed block features, but for that I will have to understand its properties from someone who manufactures accordions, I guess.


If we could make the replacement/tightening of reeds as easy as changing a fuse in a circuit box, it will be a win.

My experience with hide glue and instruments is from rebuilding a player piano 30+ years ago. My player mentor insisted I use only hide glue so the next person would be able to get it apart to repair it some time in the future. He wasn't concerned with warmer enviornmental temperatures - it might have to be pretty hot to affect hide glue in an instrument. (apparently about 145-deg F)

Hide glue can be easily softened by applying enough heat. I mostly used an old clothes iron. This worked well on the man placesbellows cloth was glued to the edges of the various bellows boards. All the bellows cloth was easy to remove with heat (all three types of cloth, the thinnest on the 66 striker bellows, a thicker cloth on the vacuum motor, regulator, and slide position bellows, and heavy 3-layer cloth on the foot bellows and vacuum reservoir.) That part would have been a nightmare if applied with modern glue.

Besides that, there was very little constructed so that heat could be applied effectively. Wood is a good insulator and head can't penetrate deeply. With heat I could loosen some of the many thin striker bellows but many could not be heated enough and had to removed by splitting the wood. This was actually no problem since the split surfaces fit perfectly together and could easily be glued.

There was no place where hide glue was applied as a fillet to hold something on, the way wax is used in an accordion. I can't imagine that working well in an accordion. I also don't know of some modern material which would do the things a good accordion wax apparently does everything well: easy to apply, doesn't degrade quickly (assuming it's formulated correctly and the instrument is stored properly), easy to apply and remove with simple tools, fastens reed plates securely, and effects a good transfer of sound from the metal reed plate to the wooden reed block.

*** As for changing reed plates like a circuit breaker, I expect that could be done with a machanical means such as spring clamps, assuming a proper compression seal material could be found and the reed block made rigid enough not to warp with the additional mechanical stress AND without affecting the sound transmilssion and quality. However, the first design I imagined would add significant undesireable weight to the instrument.

*** As for gluing wood in an accordion where structural wood has actually broken and not simply come apart at a seam, for example as in the photos posted here recently of frame damage in an accordion that was dropped, I see no reason not to make a permanent repair using modern glues, such as Titebond or epoxy.

Also, my only experience with a broken stringed instrument repair: my mother-in-law fell and broke the front of a 1/2-sized cello left on the floor. The repair shop didn't heat and remove the front but removed it by sawing all the way around, presumably with a very thin saw blade. He repaired the broken wood with a modern wood glue then glued the instrument back together with hide glue. It didn't look pretty but worked ok. We donated it to a local school.

JKJ

 

[Siegmund]

Returning to Jaime's original question...

If you're looking only at repairing an existing instrument, you are pretty much forced into matching what is already there.

For new builds, there are other choices. Several manufacturers place a leather gasket between the reeds and the blocks, and nail down the reeds. This doesn't melt in hot weather and is less likely to pop loose when dropped a short distance. It sounds very good, too.

I wonder if maybe screws would be better than nails, for easier access to replace broken reeds or inside leathers, but I haven't seen that yet.

In the future I expect we will see other experiments. A 3-d printed reed block would probably require different kinds of glue than a wood block, and might offer some new options (using glues that temporarily dissolve the plastic, and can be released with a few drops of solvent, rather than melted, etc.)

 

[Tor]

Sorry, I hadn't meant to suggest hide glue as an alternate material, though I can see how my post could be taken as such.  Hide glue and wax have very different properties, each of which I can see being useful in different places, but holding reeds isn't a place for the former.

People will keep experimenting with options for all sorts of things, including replacing reed wax, but it's not an easy problem, and there's also the difference between "works now" and "works a century from now after necessary repairs."  Unless, of course, you like living in a world where everything is disposable because the weakest part within it has failed.

Regarding screws holding the reeds with a thin leather gasket, it's possible, although I suspect the temptation will be to remove them frequently enough that the screws won't hold.  That said, if one were to put in a brass threaded insert in the block on each end of each reed slot, and then use the mildest locktite on the machine thread it might hold up to long use.  More expensive, however, and compressible materials for making seals tend to also be vibration absorbers.

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

Returning to Jaime's original question...

If you're looking only at repairing an existing instrument, you are pretty much forced into matching what is already there.

Not really, I already figured I will have to stick to wax for now. But it will be nice to find an improvement that exists today but we just don't know is there. An out of tune accordion could be a nightmare for an enthusiastic youn musician so there is a need to make it sturdier, or easier to repair.

For new builds, there are other choices. Several manufacturers place a leather gasket between the reeds and the blocks, and nail down the reeds. This doesn't melt in hot weather and is less likely to pop loose when dropped a short distance. It sounds very good, too.

This is a good idea. I've been using teflon tape to improve the grip of the nails to the reedblock.

I wonder if maybe screws would be better than nails, for easier access to replace broken reeds or inside leathers, but I haven't seen that yet.

In the future I expect we will see other experiments. A 3-d printed reed block would probably require different kinds of glue than a wood block, and might offer some new options (using glues that temporarily dissolve the plastic, and can be released with a few drops of solvent, rather than melted, etc.)

A nail is less damaging than a screw for the wood if is needed to replace it, I believe. Maybe a rubber like place holder could replace the wax and have it attached with nails/pins could do the trick.

A 3d printed reedblock could greatly reduce cost of manufacturing, if it could effectively replace wood in most of its properties.


If I am serious about this, I should definitely consider going to an accordion manufacturer and see what the remaining artisans can share with me. Maybe Victoria accordions will be kind enough?

 

[Alan Sharkis]

My experience with hide glue and instruments is from rebuilding a player piano 30+ years ago. My player mentor insisted I use only hide glue so the next person would be able to get it apart to repair it some time in the future. He wasn't concerned with warmer enviornmental temperatures - it might have to be pretty hot to affect hide glue in an instrument. (apparently about 145-deg F)

Hide glue can be easily softened by applying enough heat. I mostly used an old clothes iron. This worked well on the man placesbellows cloth was glued to the edges of the various bellows boards. All the bellows cloth was easy to remove with heat (all three types of cloth, the thinnest on the 66 striker bellows, a thicker cloth on the vacuum motor, regulator, and slide position bellows, and heavy 3-layer cloth on the foot bellows and vacuum reservoir.) That part would have been a nightmare if applied with modern glue.

Besides that, there was very little constructed so that heat could be applied effectively. Wood is a good insulator and head can't penetrate deeply. With heat I could loosen some of the many thin striker bellows but many could not be heated enough and had to removed by splitting the wood. This was actually no problem since the split surfaces fit perfectly together and could easily be glued.

There was no place where hide glue was applied as a fillet to hold something on, the way wax is used in an accordion. I can't imagine that working well in an accordion. I also don't know of some modern material which would do the things a good accordion wax apparently does everything well: easy to apply, doesn't degrade quickly (assuming it's formulated correctly and the instrument is stored properly), easy to apply and remove with simple tools, fastens reed plates securely, and effects a good transfer of sound from the metal reed plate to the wooden reed block.

*** As for changing reed plates like a circuit breaker, I expect that could be done with a machanical means such as spring clamps, assuming a proper compression seal material could be found and the reed block made rigid enough not to warp with the additional mechanical stress AND without affecting the sound transmilssion and quality. However, the first design I imagined would add significant undesireable weight to the instrument.

*** As for gluing wood in an accordion where structural wood has actually broken and not simply come apart at a seam, for example as in the photos posted here recently of frame damage in an accordion that was dropped, I see no reason not to make a permanent repair using modern glues, such as Titebond or epoxy.

Also, my only experience with a broken stringed instrument repair: my mother-in-law fell and broke the front of a 1/2-sized cello left on the floor. The repair shop didn't heat and remove the front but removed it by sawing all the way around, presumably with a very thin saw blade. He repaired the broken wood with a modern wood glue then glued the instrument back together with hide glue. It didn't look pretty but worked ok. We donated it to a local school.

JKJ

 

[Alan Sharkis]

This is off-topic, but I’m curious after reading that you worked on player pianos: Did you ever work on a reproducer?

 

[JKJ]

Several people have designed and 3D printed melodicas, a simpler instrument but somewhat related to accordions in that they use air and have reeds and keys with pallets. Perhaps you could start by searching for these people and learn from their experiences.

As for screws vs nails, with a lifetime of experience in creating a variety of things I far prefer screws. I think their sometimes poorer reputation might be due to people who with insufficient experience apply inappropriate force and even choose an inappropriate screw type, size, and thread pitch for a given material, sometimes even failing to drill proper pilot holes for wood screws or even fail to pre-harden the wood fibers where needed.

We sometimes choose machine screws over wood screws depending on the application, either using self-tapping screws or pre-forming threads with taps. Critical to the decision is the type of wood (and the grain orientation of course - some species even need threads tapped into inserts from fine-grained hardwood or even metal glued into the softer wood.

I’ve made several things using these techniques in the last week. There is much to know and plenty of opportunity to do it wrong. I’ve seen (and repaired) lots of failures.

JKJ

 

[JKJ]

This is off-topic, but I’m curious after reading that you worked on player pianos: Did you ever work on a reproducer?

I’ve made various repairs on pianos but only rebuilt one player. I have no experience with reproducers, having only seen a few.

The player I rebuilt was the family piano we all played as kids. Our parents required each of us to study piano.

Our piano had a player mechanism but it was in such poor shape due to vacuum leaks the player mechanism was basically non-functional. My brother and I could get it to work somewhat but only with extreme foot pumping. Years later I hauled it from PA to TN in a u-haul trailer and spent a month rebuilding the mechanism, restringing and replacing the hammers too. When I was done I could make it play rolls with the force of just one finger on the foot pedals!

I used it for years (new rolls are available for both new and old songs), then loaned it to several families. It now resides in South Carolina at my oldest son’s home! Still works well.

I know you can now buy kits to turn a piano into a digital reproducer (the first I saw stored the data on a cassette tape) and while rebuilding the player was both fun and extremely educational, the old-fashioned manual piano is all I need. (I bought a 7’ Baldwin in the 80’s and it’s a joy , way more piano than I deserve)

Don’t reproducers play with dynamics as well as the notes and timing? That would add a valuable dimension.

JKJ

 

[Tor]

I will second JKJ on screws over nail for anything that must be removed and replaced.  Nails rely on the pressure of the deformed wood acting like a pawl in order to hold.  Although this holds up every day in countless applications, it is not well-suited to an accordion reed that must be capable of being removed and reinstalled several times over the lifetime of the instrument.  Each time the nail is pulled and replaced it will first press against the "pawl," compressing the fibers, then pull past, slightly polishing the fibers and reducing their grip.

A screw, however, cuts a track for the thread to follow, and, with care in starting it, will follow that same track every time leading to much slower relative wear on the bearing surface.  A screw also has far greater control over the amount of pressure applied to what it holds.

 

[JKJ]

A screw, however, cuts a track for the thread to follow, and, with care in starting it, will follow that same track every time leading to much slower relative wear on the bearing surface.  A screw also has far greater control over the amount of pressure applied to what it holds

I speculate that many people, even a few “professionals”, never learned the proper technique for starting a screw in an existing threaded hole, whether in wood or metal. Ignorant of the proper technique and simply inserting and turning the screw, whether in wood or metal, can make a machine screw at best difficult to start and at worst, cross thread it if turned with force. In fact large diameter threaded holes in metals e.g. 2-4” pipe threads. can drive you crazy unless started properly.

In wood, especially the softer species (and especially where the hole is in end grain instead of cross grain) the problem can be much worse, both cross threading and stripping threads in the hole so that screw will never hold properly again (without repairing the hole).

For anyone interested, fortunately the correct technique is quick simple for both metals and wood:

- First, use the proper screwdriver, flat, allen, torx, or phillips - one the fits properly with no slop. Parallel-ground flat-head drivers (those often sold to gunsmiths) are the best, but I sometimes grind a small flat on a typical tapered driver.. For phillips (cross screws) the proper size driver is important. Some in the US are not aware of the Japanese JIS standard - many screws that look like philips are actually JIS and fit much better in JIS drivers. JIS drivers can be used effectively with philips screws but not so much the other way around, especially where some force is needed. One of the best things I ever did was buy a good set of JIS drivers. Allen head screws can be both imperial and metric sizes and while the wrong one may “sort of fit”, it can cause damage. Torx are Torx and hard to use the wrong size.

- Second, insert both wood and machine screws lightly and hold the driver as perfectly aligned with the axis of the hole as possible. Then before twisting to insert the screw into an existing hole, turn the screw backwards (counterclockwise for right-handed threads) with very gentle down pressure. Turn in reverse and stop when you feel a possibly very gentle “bump” or quiet “click”. The screw is now aligned with the existing threads and may be safely turned clockwise, gently at first then with gusto when sure it’s threading properly. If inserting the screw feels “too” tight, stop and figure out why. (Aside: engineering studied have show advantages and no downsides to lubricating machine screw threads, especially in severe use situations such as lug nuts on vehicle wheels - if torqued properly it’s a myth that lubricated threads can loosen during use.)

- Starting correctly is especially important with screws in wood, apparently common in accordions based on those few I’ve opened and worked on. If during the initial reverse turning you feel none or more than one gentle “click” per revolution it’s possible the screw hole has already been ruined and should be reinforced/repaired before continuing or the screw may not hold well and even work loose over time. BTW, there are are advantages to applying a bit of beeswax to the threads before inserting a wood screw the first time into a properly sized pilot hole.

- If all this seems complicated, it’s not. Once one tries it a few times it only takes a 1/2 second to feel the proper starting point. The harder thing to learn is how much force to use on both wood and machine screws, which can be different for woods of different strength, density, and grain orientation and metals depending on the material and application. There is no room for a gorilla in the shop.

Repairing stripped screw holes in wood: another topic.

JKJ

 

[jozz]

I have carried a repair kit and spare parts to all my paid gigs.
Never needed it.

I know that one day I decide too just leave it at home, but I'm sure that will be the day that I need it.