Anyone playing an Elka or Concerto?

[Rhelsing]

I am new to this site, and play (or actually haven't been for years but just started again) an Elka. I did have an ER44 sound unit but just gave it away and added an Orla xm300 to replace it. This thread seems to be primarily Roland players which seems to be primarily a Midi controller and a medium quality accordion (don't know for a fact, just what I am picking up from this thread ). The Elka is a quality accordion first, and then a Midi controller built in to it. At any rate, does anyone here have an Elka and compare it to a Roland? Also interested in anyone with a Concerto Midi and comparing it to a Roland.

 

[JerryPH]

First off, a Roland V-Accordion is a 100% digital instrument powered by batteries. No power source, no sound. Though it is a self-contained unit and has drum sounds integrated in to the bass, it has no rhythm section so units like a Roland BK-7M are still a good addition. The big thing with a Roland accordion is the number and variety of sampled digital sounds it contains. This means that the sound output is of high quality and as mentioned, when using units like the FR-8X, you have MIDI in and out.

I own both an Elka 83 (theyre really made by Iorio) and its earlier cousin the Iorio H series accordions. First, both are real accordions, with reeds and bellows and without any power source, can be used as any basic accordion can. The Elka 83 differs from the older generation by having better reeds, better layout (master wrist bar and more registers) and the addition of Cassotto, which gives it a more mellow sound and is a bit louder when compared to the older generation. Of course the electronics in the newer unit are far more advanced thanks to an additional external tone generator. Where the H-series was basically the Cordovox killer of its time, the newer one had way more sounds and ways to layer up to 4 groups in to many combinations.

However, they have integrated within them, not digital electronics but older style analog electronics. These stopped being made in the late 80s - early 90s. The Concerto is basically an updated, more modern Elka 83. It is what the Elka would be today if they were still around, but they still use a tone generatir and have the latest version of MIDI integrated.

Now MIDI had come around to being in the late 80s and some Elkavox accordions either had it integrated or added as an afterthought. This is a less advanced form of MIDI. It basically only sends a NOTE ON and NOTE OFF command and the newer instruments (both Roland and the Concerto) have the latest implementation of MIDI that permts things like controlling the volume of the MIDI notes via bellows pressure and key velocity (how hard or soft you kit the key determines the volume of the note). The Elka has neither, but obviously since I never had this option, I never missed it and even if offered the newest version would not even be interested in key velocity, but the bellows volume control might be intriging to me. For rhythm, I have a vintage Solton Programmer 24 that works perfectly and a more modern Ketron X4.

Where the digital V-Accordion (virtual accordion), is the state of the art today, the old guard MIDI accordions like the Elka and Concerto are likely still more attractive to the older generation where a real accordion with reeds and no batteries required are used. Me, I am a wierd duck... lol. I am an older guy with a hard techie bend and see the advantages of both. I am still very much pro-reeds and feel my accordions should have them, but one day I may pick up an all digital accordion as a secondary instrument.

Pictures and music that I recorded of my Elka 83 are on my personal blog site.

Strangely, there is very little info out there about the Concerto, and I could not find a single YouTube video of one in action and I do not think there is a Concerto owner on this site.

There is at least one other Elkavox user here on this site that I hope also adds his 2 cents.

 

[fjsys]

Well that would be me as the other Elkavox owner. I own an elkavox 83, and mine is a little less optioned than Jerrys. Mine isnt a tone chamber and only has the machine made reeds, but I dont have a problem with that.

Compairing an elkavox (or any other accordion) to a Roland is not a fair comparison in my opinion. They both do different things for different people.
If you are really into making an accodion not sound like an accordion then the roland is probably the best option. I have never really liked any of the accordion sounds on the roland (I own a 3x) and have found the bellows strange and stiff. I could get used to them if I wanted to, but I dont.

As of late I have really fallen out of love with MIDI accordions, and the roland sits in the corner asking if I am going to use or sell it.
The Elkavox is a good accordion and a nice Musette tuned and so I mostly just use it without the Midi.

As to the concerto I have seen a few of them, they are local to me. The person responsible for them is based out of SLC, UT named Paul Pasquali owner of Accordions International. The website is at:
http://www.accordionfactory.com/
and has some good information about the concerto.

Here is a youtube of him playing one:


I purchased my 3x from him and at the time he was making sure that it wasnt my only accordion saying that they are more of a second accordion. But he is a little biased...
HTH
Ben

 

[Rhelsing]

Thanks, Ben. Your post showed up just as I finished my post to Jerry, so I won't repeat that. Paul seems to be still working hard to keep improving the Concerto. I love the accordion without the Midi, which is why I like the craftsmanship and hand made reeds in the Elka, but for some more modern songs - I love the versatility the Midi box brings to the instrument. Not sure once indust the cobwebs off again if I will pay the freight for the Concerto, but definitely no longer going to consider the Roland. I do agree with you, however, if Midi is someone's main desire the Roland is probably a good solution and the price is far less than the Concerto.

 

[JerryPH]

One can literally take ANY accordion and make it MIDI, this is just a bunch of sensors and an interface. MIDI by itself is just a digital pathway to/from the computer or modules.

What makes the Roland (and similarly the Bugari Evo) different is that they are totally digital, and yes they also have MIDI capabilities, but it is all those sampled sounds integrated inside them that they use, that is what MIDI of itself lacks. MIDI always connects to some kind of module to make it's sounds, it is these modules that most other MIDI accordions, other than the Roland, lack. It is how I can connect my Elka to a MIDI capable device like the Ketron X4, Orla 300, 800, etc... or a Roland BK-7m and have it all work together.

If Roland ever wanted to shoot themselves in the foot, they would come out with a module that has all the V-Accordion sounds and then every MIDI accordion in the world would sound exactly as they do... and I would be one of the first to purchase that... lol.

I like how a Roland V-Accordion sounds, and I like the fact that they took the time to make high quality samples of various accordions like the Dallapé, Steiriche and musette accordions (and hundreds of others), and have them reproduced electronically. That is very cool.

Ben is so right... a digital accordion is not an acoustic accordion, and visa-versa. Each is a different market segment meant for different kinds of players and each has vastly different resulting sounds and of course they work way differently. Not everyone is a candidate for a fully digital accordion, and it is expected that especially from people that grew up with an acoustic accordions, this is the segment that will be the least interested in a fully digital instrument, which in a way is a bit sad, because that is exactly the market that Roland hopes will consider their product.

Each has advantages and disadvantages and as I said, I am a bit of a strange egg in that I can live with a foot in each camp and be happy. That said, lately, I have really been enjoying the simplicity of a single acoustic accordion that was made to be an accordion, and most of my few practice sessions have been with the Hohner Morino VIN and I have been really happy with it.

That said, I won't forget my Elka, because I it does take skills that the Hohner does not require, like a coordination between the right foot for the drum breaks/solos and an intimate knowledge of your electronic equipment and how to make it all work together harmoniously.

Ben did mention something that did ring true for me. Perhaps not for everyone, but for the majority of all accordionists that I know or see or have heard, the Roland is not their sole instrument, and they own at least one or more acoustic accordions, and have no desire to become a Roland only owner.

 

[JerryPH]

As to the concerto I have seen a few of them, they are local to me. The person responsible for them is based out of SLC, UT named Paul Pasquali owner of Accordions International. The website is at:
http://www.accordionfactory.com/
and has some good information about the concerto.

Here is a youtube of him playing one:

The video is over a year old and only 131 views... he really should make a few more with different people playing them and market them a bit differently so that the Concerto gets the popularity it well deserves.

 

[acordiansam]

First let me say that if I was only gona play jazz or cowboy country I would only play my Sonola SS6 double tone chamber box. Just love the bassoon sound and the keyboard. But it's a one trick ponie. With all the different music and accordion sounds that I like. Pluse liking to play in fun loud bands (I am also a strang one)feed back was always a nightmare not only that but with the no feed back setup you lose fidelity. So even though the Roland's sound can not match the perfect mike down in A studio. It's way better live and way more consistent sound for amplification. In an high SPL atmosphere. Of course this is just me and my 2cents. With most of the vox boxes you get good at riding the volume pedal!

Oh, I have one old electravox, one midi'ed honor vox4 W/solton x4, and my 3x. Pluse 6 more acoustic boxes too. It all depends what you like. But my 3x has been my goto box for almost 2 years now. No regrets and happy camper!

 

[Rhelsing]

Finally got the Orla xm300 and hooked it up with my Elka (I have the Elka Midi II). Pretty good results. I can still use the 50 preset registers on the Elka (and pretty much restricted to the first 99 GM Midi sounds since the ELka can only program two digits. Volume slides for bass, chords, and treble 1 and 2 work to control the midi - so does split, transpose, and octave. Tempo does not and needs controlled on the Orla. However, on the Orla you can program 520 sounds into 20 preset banks, and upload them to USB's almost without limit. On the Orla the presets can also register temp, rhythm, etc. so between the two are all kinds of possibilities, and you can jump back and forth between Elka presets and Orla presets. Now, I just need to start resetting all my presets because the old ones for use on the ER44 are no longer usable because they go to different sounds. Anyone got any preset combinations that sound good that they would like to share? I may start a different thread on that.

 

[JerryPH]

Anyone got any preset combinations that sound good that they would like to share? I may start a different thread on that.

I am not sure anyone here has your exact combination, however, feel free to make a little video that shows your settings and sounds, I know that at least I would be interested in hearing this combination. If you wanted, I could do a similar demo on the Solton Programmer 24 and Ketron X4.

 

[Rhelsing]

Thanks. I will do that as i get them set up.

 

[Rhelsing]

Thanks, Ben. Your post showed up just as I finished my post to Jerry, so I wont repeat that. Paul seems to be still working hard to keep improving the Concerto. I love the accordion without the Midi, which is why I like the craftsmanship and hand made reeds in the Elka, but for some more modern songs - I love the versatility the Midi box brings to the instrument. Not sure once indust the cobwebs off again if I will pay the freight for the Concerto, but definitely no longer going to consider the Roland. I do agree with you, however, if Midi is someones main desire the Roland is probably a good solution and the price is far less than the Concerto.

Well, having dusted off the ElKA and my skills for a few months, I made the plunge a few months ago and ordered a new Concerto. Pick it up first week in May so I will post a review. Coupling my ElKA with an Orla XM-300 was an inexpensive way to get a good midi accordion I had up and running again, but frankly would not recommend that arrangement as there were too many incompatibilities - mostly things having to do with volume and tempo and things cause by coupling old analog technology with digital technology. Mostly issues with the ElKA, not the Orla. I will keep the Orla as a rythym system. Staying in Salt Lake City for a week when I pick it up to attend a Concerto Camp designed to familiarize Concerto players with creating registers and using some of the unique features (phantom sound, etc.) so hopefully I can give a pretty good in depth review when I bring it home.

 

[JerryPH]

Congratulations! :b

Its too bad that the Concerto is so badly advertised and/or promoted. This is likely the most popular accordion forum in the world and you are the first one I see playing a Concerto here. Still a year later, I see the same videos on Youtube that I saw a year ago and even the website for the Concerto is also unchanged. In the meantime, I see hundreds of new V-accordion videos, the introduction of new models, additional sound expansions for free, and in general, a movement and evolution in that side of the industry.

Could you share with us what enticed you about the Concerto that convinced you to invest in them? What features does it have that you like more or what can it do that others cannot? Could you also share what model you have, what options and how much was it?

I am sure you have to be excited, and I Iook forward to learning more about your accordion and this very low key company.

 

[Rhelsing]

Jerry,

I agree with you, I think Paul Pasquali could do a better job of advertising the Concerto. Paul has been developing midi accordions for over 30 years and this one is his masterpiece. I bought the Model 255, which is the newest. Why did I pick the Concerto? Partially because I know Paul and bought my ELKA II from him 30+ years ago (and then like you stopped playing for about 30 years, picking it up again November of 2016). Largely also because I like having a good acoustical accordion also and while I currently forget who in Italy makes the accordion I was able to get hand made reeds with choices I wanted and a tone chamber. The Accordion itself is built in Italy (I forget but will post when I recall the manufacturer) and then Accordions Intrernational (Pauls company) adds the electronics. Since I have not played a midi-accordion other than my ELKA MIDI II, my comparisons with other midi accordions is largely from what i have read about various models on the internet - but the functions I like in the Concerto seem to be all put together in a very nice package. Each group of registers has 8 registers. Three for the left side, three for the right side (and I am not sure what the other two do - I will let you know when I get back). So, for each registration you can set bass, chord 1 and chord 2 on the base side - and solo, orchestrated 1, and orchestra 2 on the right. Each sound (over 300 in the instrument) can also be set controlling volume, reverb, and other features. (I think this is similar to most midi accordions). There is the typical ability then to split (three choices) chose arpeggios options (three choices), etc. Each group of sounds can also ad a Phantom Sound controlled by a foot pedal. The Phantom Sound is in addition to the other six registers described above and i will explain in a second. When you change a register (the whole group or a given channel within the group) the nes wound does not sound until you hit the next note that plays that sound. The Phantom sound also brings it to another level, for example you can be playing with a set up you like (say a string orchestra), with a split on the right hand sounds - but then also hit the foot switch and bring in the phantom sound (say an oboe) to replace the current solo sound (perhaps violin). If you are holding a note (or cord) the phantom sound will play separately above or below that note - to perhaps play a run or something - and then when you hit he pedal again it will revert back to your original solo sound.

It has touch sensitivity which defaults to on for appropriate instruments like piano, but can be turned on and off for any selection. Normal pay is volume petal for media and bellows for acoustic - but at the touch of a button you can move the midi over to bellow.

It has the ability to store up to 1028 registers in 14 banks of 8 groupings of 8 registers. 24 groups present on the grill at any time and any group of 8 (63 registers) can be archived or restored without having to use a USB or anything - basically storing banks of 8 registers by type (perhaps Christmas, Polkas, etc) with any three banks of 8 groups of preprogrammed registers available at any time while playing.

ALl of that seemed to be significantly more than other choices - but also significantly more costly. Price seems to run from about $16K to about $23K depending on the buyers choices. New ones (including mine) are specd out and then sent to the factory for production. I have seen used ounces available for about $10K, Chuck Henry has one available for $10K right now. He has a web page with pretty good examples of the accordions capabilities at http://chuckhenryandmusic.info/hear_me_play

 

[fjsys]

Congratulations!
I am sure that you will enjoy it a lot.

I also agree that more advertising could be done, however that would probably mean less time for the other things that he does. (like teaching me!)
Jerry you also have to realize that Roland has more staff and money to be able to advertise and produce the v-accordion, whereas Paul's operation is quite small and really a nice niche.

Hopefully the weather out here turns a little nicer for your trip. It has been cold and wet so far this week. (with snow in some parts)
Ben

 

[JerryPH]

Rhelsing, it does sound amazing, I am looking forward to hearing it in action!

I also agree that more advertising could be done, however that would probably mean less time for the other things that he does. (like teaching me!) Jerry you also have to realize that Roland has more staff and money to be able to advertise and produce the v-accordion, whereas Pauls operation is quite small and really a nice niche.

First off, Rolands dedication to the V-accordion in the past was humongous, that is a fact. They would make huge competitions, galas and shows showing many world-class accordionists taking the V to some incredible places all over the world. They were known to give away several dozen V-accordions to all their big guns. Today, their marketing is sporadic and inconsistent. The big shows and competitions are gone, and most of the little action that does happen is now in Europe, not North America. Heck, today, the marketing budget of the Bugari Evo dwarfs the marketing budget that Roland devotes to the V-accordion, and this is a company that is the same size or smaller than Pauls!

That said, Paul really should be... but does NOT need to be the one to make videos, does NOT need to be the public face of the Concerto, he **really** needs to get someone... *anyone* else to make 25-50 good quality short videos really showing what the Concerto can do and put it out there on YouTube or Vimeo. Basically, that is about the same number of videos Roland made of all their V-accordions combined and all the rest are made by owners and other people like Richard Noel and Dale Mathis. In my eyes its not a question of he cannot afford that... the reality is that if he wants to sell and compete in todays digital world... he cannot afford NOT to do that. Dont believe me? Ask Liberty Bellows what percentage of their sales would dry up if they took down their YouTube channel!

That is another thing... what confuses me is that I cant find ONE video of a Concerto by an owner on YouTube, whats up with that?

Also, just like Roland, I dont see one single video of a Concerto that is of an educational manner, a how to use it and what it can do series. The Roland is no better in that area... until I decide to jump start that project of mine in that area. Why does Paul need to teach you? He should be teaching 2-3 employees, and they should be teaching the clients... his time is of great value and he should be spending it marketing, promoting, selling.

You see, if my coming videos do as much for the Roland as my videos did of the photography triggers did (sales jumped up 27% within 30 days of my 2nd video release), I cannot see why not similar results couldnt be resultant for the Concerto... and no one paid me anything to do the Pocket Wizard Mild to Wild series , not a single penny. I do it for the fun, pleasure and chance to take my learnings deeper, and, I know that I am by nature an educator, so I can do it fairly well.

Maybe you could do something like that for the Concerto, because currently, I think they are the accordion worlds best kept secret, and perhaps they should not be!

 

[Rhelsing]

Good idea. Maybe I will try to post a view YouTube videos. Never tried that and I have no idea how good they will turn out with an iPhone as a camera - but worth a try. Chuck Henry has a few youtubes posted with his concerto if you search Chuck Henry Accordion but they are not educational. I will check with Paul when I see him and see how many concerto players there are out there that might be interested.