Basso accordion

[timg147]

Hi all,

I'm looking to buy a basso accordion. Anybody got any tips? I realise it's probably going to have to be new. Who makes them? I know of bugari, pigini and zero sette.

 

[JerryPH]

Hohner, Bugari, for sure, did not look at other brands. Google is your friend for easy things like that, hint, hint!

 

[debra]

My first bass accordion was a Galanti, which I bought cheaply from an accordion orchestra that folded. Years later I bought a new Bugari bass accordion. It has great deep sound (which is in part thanks to the "Umlenkstimmstock"). I have also done some repairs and/or mic installation in Giulietti bass accordion and a Ballone Burini bass accordion. Both also sounded pretty good and also had the Umlenkstimmstock. For a while Kratt was also well known around here. (This was a German company that got their better instruments made in Italy. Some (if not all) of them made by Fantini. I liked the Kratt bass accordions less than the others.) Some bass accordions have a range from C1 to A3 (those are the smaller ones), some others have C1 to C4. (Many Hohner bass accordions are like this. I don't know who made/makes these. Not Hohner of course.) Most current "full size" bass accordions have a range from C1 to D4 and a lot of music arrangements for accordion orchestra assume that the bass accordion has this range. There are some rare bass accordions that have a low B key. That suggests a B0 note, but alas nobody makes these reeds and the low B key is a dummy. All these bass accordions have LM configuration: the L and M reeds always play together. The M reed helps the L reed start faster and the "Umlenkstimmstock" (if present) makes the sound of the L reed dominate that of the M reed, giving a deep sound.
My current bass accordion is the Pigini C39. This accordion has an LMH reed configuration and has registers L, LM, LH, LMH. That gives the bass accordion more sound possibilities. However the Pigini does not have an Umlenkstimmstock so the L reeds are less dominant over the M and H reeds. Also, the internal construction makes that the M and H reeds influence each other, and as a result perfect tuning is not possible. The problem is small and most people will not notice this. My Pigini is the button version and has a range of 40 notes: C1 to Eb4. The PA version P39 has the tradional 39 notes C1 to D4. While the Pigini is a nice bass accordions and the registers are nice to have (especially the L register is nice) when you purely consider the sound I prefer the sound of the bass accordions with Umlenkstimmstock, like my previous Bugari. Once you use built-in mics and amplify the sound and you play bass in an orchestra the sound differences become smaller.
So the short of it is: all bass accordions are pretty good. It is important though to get one with the C1-D4 range and not one that only goes up to C4. (So certainly don't get a Hohner, as until now Hohner bass accordions do not go up to D4.)

 

[timg147]

Mr google found me the bugari and pigini ones, found zero sette a bit by accident. I couldn't obviously find one on the hohner site (and they haven't replied to me asking if they still manufactured them). The zero sette one brand new is a lot cheaper then the bugari but apparently they share the same factory.

 

[debra]

Mr google found me the bugari and pigini ones, found zero sette a bit by accident. I couldn't obviously find one on the hohner site (and they haven't replied to me asking if they still manufactured them). The zero sette one brand new is a lot cheaper then the bugari but apparently they share the same factory.

Special instruments are not always easily find just by looking at an online catalog of a company. Just out of curiosity I looked at the Pigini website which lists the P34 bass accordion with a range of 39 notes (C1 to D4) whereas that used to be an instrument with 34 notes (hence the 34 in the name) and it lists the C39 but not the P39 which of course also exists...
The Bugari website lists both the PA and CBA version of their bass accordion.
The Zero Sette website lists a bass accordion with a range of B0 to C4 and doesn't say that the B0 is likely a dummy (I don't know whether it is or not, but I know of no reed maker that makes a B0 reed). If it is a lot cheaper than the Bugari I suspect it may not have the "Umlenkstimmstock" construction, but again, I don't know. In an case, the bass not going up to D4 is a problem with modern compositions and arrangements.
It is quite likely that Hohner no longer sells a bass accordion, I don't know. They used to build a smallish bass accordion with 34 notes that many orchestras used (it only goes up to A3) and that had a nice deep sound. Then they replaced that model by a bass accordion with 37 notes (C1 to C4) and I don't know who manufactured that. It was popular in German accordion orchestras but I cannot remember ever seeing it much elsewhere.
In terms of popularity (I have seen many accordion orchestras) the Bugari bass accordion is by far the most popular instruments. Only in recent years the Pigini P39 and C39 started to appear. I think they only started making these about 15 years ago, to have a bass accordion with 3 reed sets and with registers. I have one of the relatively early ones, with reed blocks that are glued in (aaaarrrrrgggghhhh!!!) and with regular and chin switches. I believe the newer ones are no longer glued (have not seen that) and only have chin switches. I don't know whether they solved the tuning problem with the M and H reeds.
(The only other bass accordion with registers I ever saw was in the Castelfidardo accordion museum. I believe it was an Excelsior and was 2 voice. The museum also has a Frontalini bass accordion with a huge horn.)
My conclusion from everything I have seen so far is:
1) If you must have a bass accordion with registers, the Pigini P39/C39 is the only option.
2) If you don't need registers but just want the best bass sound in a new bass accordion, the Bugari is the one to get.

 

[stickista]

Hohner, Bugari, for sure, did not look at other brands. Google is your friend for easy things like that, hint, hint!

Or he could ask here on a friendly forum where people may have actual experience, and not get mostly useless advertising links.

 

[JerryPH]

Or he could ask here on a friendly forum where people may have actual experience, and not get mostly useless advertising links.

It's not a question of not being friendly or not, also due to the fact that it is a specialty instrument, intimate knowledge of specifics on those instruments will be best known by the people that make them. I also never said to STOP at a google search.

Advertising links? Sorry, that's part of Google, we cannot change that, but it is also the biggest search engine in the world that will get your foot in the door in terms of STARTING the search. I thought it would be evident, but the suggested process should normally be:

1. Google who makes what you search for
2. Look at the websites of the manufacturers that make them
3. If you are serious enough at that point, reach out to the companies directly.

No one knows their instruments better than them and as Paul has proven, they may have something that is not even on their website.

As far as the good people on this forum, they will automatically chime in if they know anything, just as Paul usually does... however, if you want instant progress, the fastest way is traditionally doing the homework yourself.

 

[PhiliGol]

The best Basso I ever played is the Beltuna.
It's responsiveness and balance in volume over entire tone-range is just awesome.

Same issue as with other companies: they don't list it in their (online) catalogue.
I'm almost sure they still make it (on request) as the one I had the pleasure to play was pretty new (ca. 3 years old)

 

[debra]

The best Basso I ever played is the Beltuna.
It's responsiveness and balance in volume over entire tone-range is just awesome.

Same issue as with other companies: they don't list it in their (online) catalogue.
I'm almost sure they still make it (on request) as the one I had the pleasure to play was pretty new (ca. 3 years old)

I'd love to hear (and even try) a Beltuna bass accordion. I have never seen one and also don't know the specifications (2 voice? 3 voice? registers? "Umlenkstimmstock"?

 

[PhiliGol]

Hi Paul

The question I can answer right away is that it doesn't have any registers.
I presume it's a 2 voice nut don't know whether it features a Winkel-Stimmstock, didn't dare to open it
At least I'll take some photos while rehearsing tonight.

 

[debra]

Hi Paul

The question I can answer right away is that it doesn't have any registers.
I presume it's a 2 voice nut don't know whether it features a Winkel-Stimmstock, didn't dare to open it
At least I'll take some photos while rehearsing tonight.

I'm not surprised that it is 2 voice, because they all are, except for the Pigini C39 and P39. The "Umlenkstimmstock" is something you should easily hear without the need to open the instrument. It enhances the sound of the L reed so it dominates the M reed more (a bit like what a cassotto does). The "Winkel-Stimmstock" is a reed block with elongated resonance chambers and a 90 degree angle and the "Umlenkstimmstock" has the elongated resonance chambers at a 180 degree angle, which makes for a more compact setup.
I''m sure that the Beltuna must have this because you most likely would not have been impressed by it if it didn't.

 

[timg147]

So, what I have found so far is the following manufacturers
Bugari, pigini, scandalli, serenellini

 

[PhiliGol]

Yeah these bass-instruments are typically not displayed - neither online nor in the online-paper-catalogues (does that make sense what I'm saying - you may know what I mean the catalogue which you get in paper from your local dealer pdf'ed).
I just checked Hohner, Weltmeister and Beltuna - all made bass-instruments (and presumably still do on request).
The thing I just had in my hands 2 hrs ago is the Beltuna:




A brilliant instrument, as new as 3 years with built-in Limex microphones.
Played over a 60's Selmer (4 x EL34 push-pull) - that can bring the house down

It's not a bargain - maybe way over €6.000,- now.

 

[debra]

...
The thing I just had in my hands 2 hrs ago is the Beltuna:
...
A brilliant instrument, as new as 3 years with built-in Limex microphones.
Played over a 60's Selmer (4 x EL34 push-pull) - that can bring the house down

It's not a bargain - maybe way over €6.000,- now.

Thanks for the pics. I can now really rule that one out because:
1) It only goes up to C4. That means you cannot play many recent arrangements that all assume the bass goes up to D4. The main bass accordions used in non-German orchestras today (Bugari and Pigini) go up to D4. (The Germans mostly use a Hohner bass and even the newest ones only go up to C, as do some older other bass accordions like Zero Sette, Giulietti and Ballone Burini.)
2) It has a construction where the lower 16 notes are on two very large blocks (with "Umlenkstimmstock") and the higher notes are on three smaller blocks (possibly also with Umlenkstimmstock but possibly not). You *will* hear the transition from the 16th to the 17th note. You may check how well Beltuna hides this transition. On the Bugari I had it was pretty good, but on some others (Giulietti comes to mind) the transition was rather obvious. (The Pigini has just two large/long reed blocks, so no transition at all.)

 

[debra]

I must correct myself here. I just saw a picture (on facebook) of the Quartet of the Hohner Conservatory, featuring a new Hohner bass accordion with the range going from low C to high D (39 notes), just like all newer Italian bass accordions. Which Italian company makes this Hohner bass accordion I don't know, but it's not a surprise that Hohner has followed the other companies' lead since the high D is needed in many accordion ensemble arrangements.

 

[Stan62]

Hi all,

I'm looking to buy a basso accordion. Anybody got any tips? I realise it's probably going to have to be new. Who makes them? I know of bugari, pigini and zero sette.

Hi there, are you still looking for a bass accordion?
I have a couple of them. Here's photos attached. Giulietti 37 notes from low C to high F and has three register switches. Also a Scandalli. It has 37 notes from low E to high E and no switches. Both accordions have two sets of reeds. I'm In Canada. Thanks

 

[dak]

Thanks for the pics. I can now really rule that one out because:
1) It only goes up to C4. That means you cannot play many recent arrangements that all assume the bass goes up to D4. The main bass accordions used in non-German orchestras today (Bugari and Pigini) go up to D4. (The Germans mostly use a Hohner bass and even the newest ones only go up to C, as do some older other bass accordions like Zero Sette, Giulietti and Ballone Burini.)
2) It has a construction where the lower 16 notes are on two very large blocks (with "Umlenkstimmstock") and the higher notes are on three smaller blocks (possibly also with Umlenkstimmstock but possibly not). You *will* hear the transition from the 16th to the 17th note. You may check how well Beltuna hides this transition. On the Bugari I had it was pretty good, but on some others (Giulietti comes to mind) the transition was rather obvious. (The Pigini has just two large/long reed blocks, so no transition at all.)

It is important to note that many bass accordions are equipped with bellows-internal microphones, and the constructive measures for masking the transition don't apply internally in the same way. Our accordion orchestra uses a Hohner Basso with a pretty good internal microphone, but when we play amplified, we use an externally mounted grille microphone bar, and one of the reasons is that on the inside the reed block transition just sucks, while outside the sound quality transitions pretty well. Another is articulation: if you release a bass note, the external air stream cuts off while internally the reed keeps vibrating.

Internal is great for long sustained notes in an organ-like quality. It is annoying for rhythmic play where the reed dynamic behavior (namely everything except the sustained note behavior) is most important and bass accordion players distinguish themselves from players more used to the immediate reaction of accordions in the normal ranges.

 

[debra]

Hi there, are you still looking for a bass accordion?
I have a couple of them. Here's photos attached. Giulietti 37 notes from low C to high F and has three register switches. Also a Scandalli. It has 37 notes from low E to high E and no switches. Both accordions have two sets of reeds. I'm In Canada. Thanks

That is very interesting. That Giulietti in the pictures as notes from low C to high D, 39 notes. (It has a low B key but that's always dummy.)
If only that Giulietti were CBA instead of PA I would be very interested!
I'd love a bass accordion with L, M and LM registers, because the M register lets it double up as a "cello accordion", just what I'd need to play Bach's first cello suite.

 

[PhiliGol]

That is very interesting. That Giulietti in the pictures as notes from low C to high D, 39 notes. (It has a low B key but that's always dummy.)
If only that Giulietti were CBA instead of PA I would be very interested!
I'd love a bass accordion with L, M and LM registers, because the M register lets it double up as a "cello accordion", just what I'd need to play Bach's first cello suite.

Hi Paul
It sounds a bit odd but I think also the upper C# and D keys are dummy keys.
If you follow the linkage from key to flaps you won't notice dedicated flaps.
Also if you count the total no of flaps you end up at 37 - which fits Stan's model-name saying "Giulietti 37".

 

[dak]

Hi Paul
It sounds a bit odd but I think also the upper C# and D keys are dummy keys.

I find dummy keys and buttons offensive. I rarely get tripped up on my single dummy C#1 button for the free bass (and it actually is spring-loaded), but I have an accordion with quite a few treble dummy buttons and it is just annoying to randomly run out of notes you feel. I really appreciate converters that stop their buttons right where the notes stop. And appreciate that the fourth row button at the low end of my C system CBA that does not repeat a note from the 1st row still has a sound.