Bluetooth connection question for a 15 year old keyboard

[wirralaccordion]

I would like to know if there is a way of using wireless headphones ( bluetooth enabled ) with a keyboard that is not bluetooth enabled. I see that there are USB bluetooth adaptors or dongles that you can buy very cheaply but can they be used for this application. The keyboard is a Casio Privia.PX-100 and about 15 years old and the sound is very good through wired headphones ( better than without headphones at all ) but I would prefer to be able to use wirelesss headphones if there is a way. Any technical advice would be much appreciated.

 

[knobby]

There’s no reason something like this shouldn’t work for you:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/ORIA-Bluetooth-Transmitter-Receiver-Headphones/dp/B0BNKJHGTL/ref=sr_1_14?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.qLj8FY4hEZRzmemfjCVs-qt1rwLxPVELBmrCwn12ryPbJhOF2s_6xz1Avhe6VJFEDMb7CTLk6ga_lRdLN3bWV08eR8ksQ1JSG7jYC2Is1Eqxq_qIzDL8qK-EVsJ_tS2BqMv36b0YBIawyTGkuMoG4DtNLBd84QoZ_8l21r_RmXif9Yo8wMzKO9rrixwdCGeK5MhCbQqz2vxEe7uT689Cvms9tLycrUkjqU5QbKENmFw.BeWFQiUeb8AoUa88kZMzDqlD0IcRvh0KbWdYEf3k5YA&dib_tag=se&keywords=bluetooth%2Btransmitter&qid=1724517231&sr=8-14&th=1

 

[knobby]

But with something like this you may experience some latency which can be quite annoying.

 

[SteveBox]

It is suggested that latencies of more than 15ms (milliseconds) start to be noticeable for tasks like watching TV, video gaming, or live music playing. It depends on the individual at what point longer latencies become annoying.

Ordinary Bluetooth audio can have a latency of 200ms or longer. There are some newer Bluetooth codecs claiming to offer 40ms, but even that could be too high. Both Bluetooth transmitter and receiver would have to support the same codec in order to use it. This article discusses the various codecs and their latencies. Yes, it's all very technical and confusing that there are so many implementations of Bluetooth audio.

A way to understand latency is to consider that sound travels about 1 foot per millisecond. So, if you are playing a digital piano and listening on typical Bluetooth headphones with 200ms latency, it is as if your ears are 200 feet away from the keyboard.

There are very low latency wireless headphones available that don't use Bluetooth and come with their own transmitter. For example, Yamaha makes a professional quality one for musicians, the YH-WL500 that is claimed to have a latency of only 4ms. Another similar headphone is the AIAIAI TMA-2 with 16ms latency. Both are expensive, but there may be lower cost/lower quality ones on the market. I have not used any of these, but I've done a little research on this sort of thing, as I've thought about getting some myself.

Here is someone who has an idea for inexpensive low-latency wireless headphones using an inexpensive (non-Bluetooth) transmitter/receiver pair designed for wireless in-ear monitoring, together with an ordinary set of wired headphones:

 

[JerryPH]

New stuff is coming out all the time, interesting. CME is working on making BT wireless transceivers with like under 1ms latency times, I will be experimenting with those on my wireless accordion recording setups once released.

I’ve noticed that I can tell 10ms latency easily and 20ms latency is pretty much unacceptable. My line for general use is 5ms or less to hear what I am playing without annoyances.

 

[Ventura]

for me, this push to bluetooth was not really in our musical best interests,
but in devices being more broadly useful and selling more for companies

meaning we had basically zero latency MIDI Tx/Rx what, 20 years ago,
using simple UHF frequencies and obviously zero latency Audio decades
before that from VHF onward

perhaps for those of you who want broad co-ordinated stuff
turning pages, working with apps, etc. but i don't care about
any of that cuz i don't need it or imagine any use of it.

the important tech jump to me was when Processing power, miniaturization,
speed, allowed DAC's to work faster than we could blink, allowing
wireless audio, immune to interference, as clear and reliable as a Belden Cable..
feeding audio through Bluetooth seems a step backwards not an improvement

 

[wirralaccordion]

There’s no reason something like this shouldn’t work for you:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/ORIA-Bluetooth-Transmitter-Receiver-Headphones/dp/B0BNKJHGTL/ref=sr_1_14?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.qLj8FY4hEZRzmemfjCVs-qt1rwLxPVELBmrCwn12ryPbJhOF2s_6xz1Avhe6VJFEDMb7CTLk6ga_lRdLN3bWV08eR8ksQ1JSG7jYC2Is1Eqxq_qIzDL8qK-EVsJ_tS2BqMv36b0YBIawyTGkuMoG4DtNLBd84QoZ_8l21r_RmXif9Yo8wMzKO9rrixwdCGeK5MhCbQqz2vxEe7uT689Cvms9tLycrUkjqU5QbKENmFw.BeWFQiUeb8AoUa88kZMzDqlD0IcRvh0KbWdYEf3k5YA&dib_tag=se&keywords=bluetooth%2Btransmitter&qid=1724517231&sr=8-14&th=1

Does this device convert the keyboard or the headphones to become bluetooth compatible?
Looking at the picture of the device with its audio lead in place, it looks like you plug the audio lead into the headphone socket of the keyboard, set the device to RX, and that's it. Is it really as simple as that?

 

[SteveBox]

meaning we had basically zero latency MIDI Tx/Rx what, 20 years ago,
using simple UHF frequencies and obviously zero latency Audio decades
before that from VHF onward

Digital audio has certain advantages, but latency is not one of them. Bluetooth was designed to minimize the RF bandwidth of a single channel, so it can support a lot of channels in the RF spectrum that was allotted for it. This means it has to do audio compression to minimize the bits it has to transmit. It takes additional computer time (and more latency) to compress in the transmitter, then uncompress in the receiver (and this compromises the audio quality as well). Bluetooth audio was not really intended for low latency applications.

Good old analog radio always has almost no latency. I think most of the wireless systems used by professional musicians on stage are analog. There are some low latency digital systems (such as that inexpensive one in the video I posted), but they almost certainly do little or no audio compression to achieve this.

 

[knobby]

Does this device convert the keyboard or the headphones to become bluetooth compatible?
Looking at the picture of the device with its audio lead in place, it looks like you plug the audio lead into the headphone socket of the keyboard, set the device to RX, and that's it. Is it really as simple as that?

It would plug into the headphone jack and transmit the sound to your headphones. I’ve used similar items to “Bluetooth enable” older stereo systems to allow them to send music to my Bluetooth headphones. But latency isn’t an issue doing this as I’m just listening, so it doesn’t matter if there’s a delay between the stereo sending the music and me receiving it. With a keyboard you may find your fingers a few notes ahead of your ears!

 

[wirralaccordion]

It would plug into the headphone jack and transmit the sound to your headphones. I’ve used similar items to “Bluetooth enable” older stereo systems to allow them to send music to my Bluetooth headphones. But latency isn’t an issue doing this as I’m just listening, so it doesn’t matter if there’s a delay between the stereo sending the music and me receiving it. With a keyboard you may find your fingers a few notes ahead of your ears!

Ah thanks for that. It would seem therefore that the setting should be TX and not RX then

 

[wirralaccordion]

With any bluetooth adapter such as the one above, would latency be a feature of the bluetooth headphones. I just wondered because latency isn't mentioned amogst the features quoted on my bluetooth headphones. If not, what feature would you be looking for when purchasing a new set of bluetooth headphones to use with a bluetooth adaptor?

 

[knobby]

With any bluetooth adapter such as the one above, would latency be a feature of the bluetooth headphones. I just wondered because latency isn't mentioned amogst the features quoted on my bluetooth headphones.

It’s not really a feature of the headphones, more the transmitter. Normally you’d be using the headphones to listen to music from a Bluetooth source. The fact that the music arrives 30ms after the music was actually transmitted doesn’t matter and you wouldn’t know anything about it anyway. But try connecting your headphones to a Bluetooth-enabled TV and you’ll see people’s mouths moving slightly before you hear their voices. Some streaming services/boxes allow you to adjust the sound to synch with the picture for just that reason.

 

[knobby]

A bit of looking around would suggest you need aptX (whatever that is) in the transmitter and headphones. There’s a thread on AV Forums discussing it here:

Bluetooth AptX Low Latency Transmitter - Recommendations

For the past 5 years I have been using this little Trond Bluetooth Transmitter that I plug into the headphone jack on the front of my Denon at night to watch TV, sync has always been spot on but over the last year or so I have noticed the battery holding less and less charge and now I only get...

www.avforums.com

 

[SteveBox]

With any bluetooth adapter such as the one above, would latency be a feature of the bluetooth headphones. I just wondered because latency isn't mentioned amogst the features quoted on my bluetooth headphones.

Unless a Bluetooth audio device has low latency, the manufacturer probably says nothing about latency in the specs. They don't want to give you a reason not to buy it! Both the transmitter and receiver side have to support a low latency codec such as AptX LL, otherwise you will get no benefit from it. "codec" is short for "encode-decode", the method a computer uses to convert the analog audio to digital and back again to analog at the other end. There are many codecs, as there have been many ways invented to do this encoding/decoding, with newer improved methods being developed. However, Bluetooth has certain limitations, so it will never achieve the very low latency possible with analog and some of the non-Bluetooth digital solutions.

 

[Ventura]

Bluetooth connection question for a 15 year old​

and if we ask a teenager, (and obviously we should defer tech questions
about modern stuff to 15 year old's) would they say don't use Bluetooth
for any serious Audio needs, use actual audio equipment ?

Bluetooth is a networking scheme/protocol, just on a personal level
rather than a wider area network like your home WiFi, for example
or the Network at a place of business

but bluetooth is still just a network.. it uses packets, it has to address
and route them hither and yon. it has to re-assemble them..

does that seem like a friendly environment for sound ?

so OK you were wanting to use some bluetooth headphones you
already owned.. understandable.. but the moment you said
"maybe i should buy something new but still bluetooth"
you lost me

wireless audio is merely substituting an appropriate wireless
transmitter and receiver for a wire.. some receivers go to a PA system
or amp, some to headphones, some to earpieces, Any device that has
an audio output can be used as a source

you can use a network for audio like a youtube video has,
or a movie that is cast from your phone, or even mixing
down pre-recorded trax, but if you want to hit a key or a string
and for sure hear it at the same time, no.

 

[wirralaccordion]

It would plug into the headphone jack and transmit the sound to your headphones. I’ve used similar items to “Bluetooth enable” older stereo systems to allow them to send music to my Bluetooth headphones. But latency isn’t an issue doing this as I’m just listening, so it doesn’t matter if there’s a delay between the stereo sending the music and me receiving it. With a keyboard you may find your fingers a few notes ahead of your ears!

I bought myself a better pair of bluetooth headphones ( Soundcore Q30 ) and it worked ( although there was excessive latency as was suggested might be the case above ). However, using the auxiliary socket on the headphones and a 3.5mm stereo jack to jack lead to the keyboard in order to use these headphones as wired, sound only came through to one ear suggesting a fault with the keyboard socket ( this was also the case with another wired headphone set ).
Still, I am perfectly happy with the Soundcore headphones and the adaptor which work perfectly with other "bluetoothless" equipment.