Button accordion: choice of right-hand fingering can be a mixed blessing

[Mark Bossanyi]

I changed from a piano accordion to a B-system button accordion years ago for playing jazz improvisation. I thought that the different ways to play one and the same note - and the variety of possible fingerings for playing one and the same riff - would help.
Well, it can certainly provide "emergency exits" if your fingers get tangled up in fast passages, but on the other hand it can also slow you down - because when improvising (as opposed to playing something for which you've learned the fingering beforehand), you're constantly making split-second decisions on what notes to play. So if at the same time you have to decide HOW to play the notes and how to get your fingers to play in order - this way or that way - those split-second decisions can drag out. Just a bit, but enough to take the spring and precision out of the music.
Has anyone else had this experience? How did you get over it?

 

[JerryPH]

First you are comparing 2 different fingering positions. Assuming you know both EQUALLY well, it would, in theory, make zero difference... so my 2 cents... if you are doing things on PA that you just quite cannot on CBA, you are not at the same comfort level on the CBA as the PA, and when you finally will get there, it will feel equally comfortable.

This stuff takes time.. LOTS of time.

 

[Dingo40]

but on the other hand it can also slow you down - because when improvising (as opposed to playing something for which you've learned the fingering beforehand), you're constantly making split-second decisions on what notes to play. So if at the same time you have to decide

That's what I thought too...and stayed with PA!

 

[debra]

On CBA you are indeed spoiled for choice (between using 1st row versus 4rd and 2nd versus 5th). There are essentially two lines of schools: one says to use the first three rows only and take something from the 4rd row only "in an emergency", and the other says to find a fingering that works best, using all five rows. I don't quite belong to the second school, but use a mix: when it is really more convenient to use the 4rd row I will, for instance to use the same fingering on a run or chord independent of where the lowest note is. On my C-system accordions that for instance means that when I play C major as C E G, using fingering 1 2 3 on 1st and 2nd row, I will do the same for G major on 2nd and 3rd row and D major on 3rd and 4rd row. I rarely do a long complex run over all 5 rows, but frequently over 4 rows.
But, major BUT: the use of all 5 rows requires thinking about fingering in advance (and writing it down for practicing). For improvisations this method simply doesn't work. When I improvise of just play a song by heart that I used to know (how to play on PA) I will play on mostly just the first three rows because that can be done without spending time thinking which rows would be best for which run.

 

[tcabot]

The general idea, I believe, is to have 1 core system that you're fluent in, and then add alternative fingerings onto it as you need them. You'll use your core for improvising.

Specifically for 5-row (and 6-row) B griff there's the Osokin fingering system that utilises 1-2-3-4 1-2-3 patterns that are very similar for all keys, so it, in theory, forms a solid base that you can use by default.
For 3-row, 5-finger playing there's Bardin's system.
Then there's the old-school Soviet 4-finger system.
There's other 5-finger fingering alternatives that I can't recall off the top of my head.

I found Osokin to be a great base, but the main problem with a 5-row keyboard that I've encountered was that I simply did not have enough free time/talent to maintain fluency in it. Miss a day of scale practice and mistakes creep into the repertoire. Miss a week, and 2/3s of the repertoire fall apart. The problem is most certainly in me rather than the system.
In the end I gave up and decided to come back to bayan playing when the klids are older/I retire/I live in a world where robots do all the work and I have time to play the bayan all day.

 

[Mark Bossanyi]

This stuff takes time.. LOTS of time.

It certainly does. I've been at it for almost exactly 20 years, and it's still a problem.

 

[losthobos]

Some licks just sound better when played using one fingering on the CBA to others....I guess you end up working how runs sound best and gravitate in that direction....
I play C system and if rising through the scale I tend to creep up across the five rows ...if descending I'm more likely to stick in the first three rows....horses for courses...
I don't like playing anything that tangles my fingers into a knot.....

 

[OuijaBoard]

I had to go back and re-train myself to make the first three rows my home-base and default choice. This is where I stay for single melody-line music, confining further rows to double stops, chordal, multi-voice. In traditional Irish music I also sometimes use the 4th/5th row for idiomatic ornaments, but not often. Since I'm largely a dance-derived world instrumental folk music player, defaulting at the first three rows has worked very well. It might be different if I were yearning to play, say, the Bach Riemenschneider, but that's the last thing I'd want to do on the accordion.

 

[Mark Bossanyi]

In fact what I use most is a B-system accordina (basically just the right hand side of a button accordion, but without bellows and you blow into it). It only has three rows. Due to the way it's held, it lends itself to playing with the arm at an angle to the keyboard, but you can also play with your arm perpendicular to it. So that provides additional fingering options, even with only three rows. In the heat of the moment during fast improvisation, you're constantly deciding on the arm angle, which (again) takes up the milliseconds you so badly need.

 

[losthobos]

I too play accordina as well as accordion....and the speed lost by only having three rows is compensated by a better range the "expressiveness" that the breath allows.....

 

[Mark Bossanyi]

I too play accordina as well as accordion....and the speed lost by only having three rows is compensated by a better range the "expressiveness" that the breath allows.....

That's very true. Pity, though, that it only works in the higher registers. I'd love to see something like an accordina that's one octave lower, or even a fifth. But with breath as opposed to bellows, the low-register reeds tend to jam. I'm not sure why that is, scientifically.

 

[debra]

... But with breath as opposed to bellows, the low-register reeds tend to jam. I'm not sure why that is, scientifically.

That's a matter of "voicing" the reeds. When the reeds choke when you blow hard (with accent) it means that the tip of the reed is too close to the surface of the reed plate. Voicing reeds is a very common task for an accordion repairer, and for the accordina repairer alike.

 

[saundersbp]

I changed from a piano accordion to a B-system button accordion years ago for playing jazz improvisation

good move!

There are essentially two lines of schools: one says to use the first three rows only and take something from the 4rd row only "in an emergency", and the other says to find a fingering that works best, using all five rows.

I'm of the second school for classical playing, too limiting otherwise playing in all the keys. Means you can use the same fingering where same segments of melody come at different pitches i.e. easier than a piano keyboard where every key is different.

BUT: the use of all 5 rows requires thinking about fingering in advance

it does indeed and writing down when you are learning saves a lot of time in the long run.

I had to go back and re-train myself to make the first three rows my home-base and default choice. This is where I stay for single melody-line music, confining further rows to double stops, chordal, multi-voice. In traditional Irish music

I just use the first three rows for jolly celtic fokey dokey too as so much is just in G or D (or minor equivalents) so it doesn't take long to get something that works happily for most tunes.

All I'd add is that if you are splashing notes, or twisting your wrist this way and that ,or it feels hard/uncomfortable, then your fingering is wrong! Some of the extreme contortions you see on youtube videos are sad to watch as so much effort has gone into learning and repeating something unstable and physically awkward that will never work consistently. It gets worse when these 'solutions' are offered as 'instructional guides' to fingering and sends people down rabbit holes which result in folk giving up because its too hard.

 

[Mark Bossanyi]

All I'd add is that if you are splashing notes, or twisting your wrist this way and that ,or it feels hard/uncomfortable, then your fingering is wrong! Some of the extreme contortions you see on youtube videos are sad to watch as so much effort has gone into learning and repeating something unstable and physically awkward that will never work consistently. I

I take your point, but many passages on the accordina are actually more comfortable and less contorted (for me at least) with the wrist at an angle to the keyboard, while other passages work better when perpendicular. Hence the constant decisions as to the wrist position.