Button accordion or piano accordion

[wirralaccordion]

If you were listening to an accordion being played and you didn't know whether it was a button accordion or a piano accordion would you be able to tell from just listening which it was?

 

[dak]

If you were listening to an accordion being played and you didn't know whether it was a button accordion or a piano accordion would you be able to tell from just listening which it was?

Well, if there are notes in the right hand that are two octaves apart, it is either a CBA or Rachmaninov himself on a very delicate lady's piano accordion. There are also obvious range issues, like if you hear tremolo in the piccolo range or in a low range clearly outside of piano accordion tessitura (converter range doesn't help since there is no tremolo in the left hand).

 

[losthobos]

Slurred blue notes...piano keyboard

 

[debra]

When there is an all-white-key glissando, it's PA. When there is a chromatic glissando it's CBA.
When two-octave "jumps" are played legato, it's CBA, just like when there are impossibly large chords.
In "plain playing" it becomes more tricky to hear the difference, but if it is fairly slow then it can still be done: the way the reeds/note are distributed over the reed blocks is different in PA versus CBA. The difference is best heard on the M register (clearer when there is cassotto but still a bit when there isn't. Listen very carefully to the A and C notes on the one hand and on to the B, D and F notes on the other hand (on C- or B-system, not Do2 or Finnish). The timbre of all 5 these notes will be identical on PA but A and C will have a different timbre than B, D an F on CBA. That's because on PA they are all on the same reed block but on CBA they are on different blocks. Then, if you hear a very slow chromatic scale and every third note is less mellow than the other two (for instance C, C# mellow, D less mellow, D# and D mellow, F less mellow) then it's a CBA with 3 reed blocks in cassotto (and the example would be C system, as on B system it would be C les mellow, C# and D mellow, D# less mellow, E and F mellow, etc.) Once a combined register is used, like LM, MH, MM, etc., you can no longer hear the difference.
The differences are not just between PA and CBA... some people can identify the specific sound of a type of accordion. I cannot, although I can identify the specific sound of each of my four CBAs. (I can identify some more, like when listening to some classical music on accordion on the radio I can tell the difference between Pigini and other brands (Bugari, Scandalli), and with jazz music I can often recognize the sound of a Victoria.)

 

[Walker]

There are differences between piano accordion and the button accordion. A full size button accordion with 64 notes on the right hand usually has 4 treble voices. However, a piano accordion has between 41 to 47 keys on the treble side and it is common to have up to 5 treble voices. Therefore, the largest button accordion can produce very low notes on the treble keyboards, whereas the piano accordion has extra treble register options, even on the largest concert instruments.

Also the layout of the button instrument has been arranged in sequences of semitones and minor thirds. However, the piano accordion arrangement of notes developed with the ancient systems of modes, that corresponds to the white notes. The black notes are ordered in a pentatonic scale too. However, both button and piano key accordions enable the performance of all types of chromatic, whole tone, major/minor scales in all keys, modes etc.

Indeed, some music that is written specifically for one type of accordion can be performed on the other, though it may be necessary to adapt the piece to suit the design of the particular accordion.

In terms of "measurable" differences:

Chromatic treble keyboard:

I find the maximum number of notes I can comfortably span with my right hand (on the small borrowed button accordion I have here) is 11 rows. That corresponds to the range of C4 (row 1) to Gb6 (row 1) though it is possible to reach G6 (row 2). That corresponds to around 2.5 octaves.

Chromatic free bass buttons:

It is possible to span around 11 buttons (vertical) down the outer row on the chromatic converter using fingers 1 to 5. However, it is not really possible on any other rows. The shape of the bass casing and presence of bass strap makes practical stretches throughout the bass manual realistic usually using fingers 2 to 5. Therefore, 7 rows of buttons is possible with some comfort. That corresponds to a span of around 19 semitones, C4 to Gb5, which is around 1.5 octaves. However, by utilising the low stradella bass notes on rows 1 and 2 combined with high free bass notes on rows 3 to 6, this enable some very large note spans (and fingers 1 and 5 can be used).

Piano keys:
On a piano accordion keyboard with 19mm keys (standard size for modern free bass Scandalli accordions), the maximum range of notes I can span is C4 to Gb5, which corresponds to 19 semitones or around 1.5 octaves (11 white notes). Though for some folk, 12 white notes will be possible, especially with extra-compact 18mm keyboards.

Quint bass buttons:
It is comfortable to span all 36 notes (3 octaves) on a quint converter with 120 bass buttons. On a larger 160 bass instrument it would be possible to stretch all 48 notes (between 6 to 7 rows).

However, regarding actual music... I personally think writing for the accordion should take into account the different types of accordion, and work within appropriate parameters so that music is playable on any system. I think it is quite common practice now to see adaptations within scores to open the music to all systems. Recognition and respect for different types of accordion is a good thing in my opinion.

The accordion composer Gorka Hermosa (who is a chromatic button accordionist) recently wrote a piece Meditatio, that received its world premier by Grayson Masefield - who not only plays a piano accordion, but with quint free bass. This is the sort of respectful and inclusive nature of writing that I find refreshing. I think it is good to appreciate the differences in accordions within a single family of instruments...​

 

[dak]

Slurred blue notes...piano keyboard

Or B system. To be exact, stepped B system, but flat B system is an outlier anyway.

 

[dak]

When there is an all-white-key glissando, it's PA. When there is a chromatic glissando it's CBA.

To be honest, most of my "glissandi" these days I'd rather call "palm roll". Friendlier on the buttons than sideways dragging.

 

[losthobos]

@dak ....can you show me an example of palm roll please...

 

[dak]

@dak ....can you show me an example of palm roll please...

Well, I guess I won't be triggering my orchestra's ire for a narrowly focused excerpt like this one:


I don't say that this is any kind of valid/established technique. It's what I ended up in order not to break off my buttons. Also turned out convenient for not losing the place.

 

[stickista]

Slurred blue notes...piano keyboard

Only if you say that slurred notes have to be done by the same finger. I can crunch any note up or down a half step with 2 fingers and don’t think one could tell if it was done with one or 2 fingers if done well.

 

[stickista]

I’ve never blinded tested myself on this, but in jazz, it seems to me that PA players often strike me as using more traditional sounding pianistic voicings (duh!), while CBA players are able to leverage the magic of diminished chords and the ease of tritone subs more fluidly than on PA.
Just a gut feeling but it seems right to me. I should test it sometime.

 

[losthobos]

I’ve never blinded tested myself on this, but in jazz, it seems to me that PA players often strike me as using more traditional sounding pianistic voicings (duh!), while CBA players are able to leverage the magic of diminished chords and the ease of tritone subs more fluidly than on PA.
Just a gut feeling but it seems right to me. I should test it sometime.

Thanks for this reminder, sometimes I pay attention to the negatives and take the positives for granted....silly me because I enjoying my accordions personality more than ever these days... appreciated

 

[JerryPH]

If you were listening to an accordion being played and you didn't know whether it was a button accordion or a piano accordion would you be able to tell from just listening which it was?

It's pretty easy if they do one of 2 things:
1. a glissando
2. a super fast 2 or more octave chromatic scale.

Glissandos sound strange on a button accordion.
chromatic scales are super easy to do on a button accordion (especially a C-griff). Easier and faster than a PA.

 

[debra]

It's pretty easy if they do one of 2 things:
1. a glissando
2. a super fast 2 or more octave chromatic scale.

Glissandos sound strange on a button accordion.
chromatic scales are super easy to do on a button accordion (especially a C-griff). Easier and faster than a PA.

I used to be able to do chromatic scales super fast on PA as well. (Years of piano training just imprint how this is done in your brain and you can never unlearn it.)
Another clear hint is when there are very fast runs over two rows.
Here is a run I put in my arrangement of Tango pour Claude (by Galliano) near the end.
From the high E downwards (considering there are 2 sharps, so D major) the run goes over rows 2 and 3 on C-system.
(Row 3 contains downwards D B Ab F and row 2 contains C# Bb G E)
Such runs are quite difficult to do fast on PA and are very easy on CBA.
The famous composition Rondo Capriccioso by Solotarjow contains lots of such runs, making it very hard on PA.

 

[JerryPH]

I used to be able to do chromatic scales super fast on PA as well. (Years of piano training just imprint how this is done in your brain and you can never unlearn it.)

I can go very fast as well, but I have yet to see a PA player do it as fast as some even less talented button accordionists. The fact is the mechanics are simpler it is a simple single repeating 3 button pattern (2-3-4-2-3-4, or coming back 4-3-2-4-3-2) where the biggest movement is repeated and at no point do fingers cross under each other and no thumb is used.

The pattern for a PA is more complex and involves 4 fingers and mechanically more complex movement.

My level of practice of the right hand over the left hand is about 50-1, meaning I've spent 50 times more time working the right hand vs the left hand, and yet I can do chromatic scales much faster and with less effort on the MIII free bass than on my PA right hand.

I can teach someone to do a chromatic scale on the C-griff MIII Free Bass in about 30 seconds... and about 30 minutes for the PA. This translates directly to a button accordion.

That is why I selected a chromatic scale done at maximum speed as being a simple way to tell if something is a PA or button.

 

[dak]

That is why I selected a chromatic scale done at maximum speed as being a simple way to tell if something is a PA or button.

Well, it's a bit like deciding whether somebody is a short or long distance runner by looking at their time running 100m. You'd consider my time for just that distance pretty bad as a lap time for a marathon runner. I doubt my chromatic run speed would even approach that of a good piano accordion player, but the patterning might tell it off. The counterthesis would be playing chromatic runs on a bandonion where the pattern is about as logical as typing the alphabet on a QWERTY keyboard.

 

[JerryPH]

Well, it's a bit like deciding whether somebody is a short or long distance runner by looking at their time running 100m. You'd consider my time for just that distance pretty bad as a lap time for a marathon runner

No, its more like asking a handicapped man and an Olympic runner to do the same distance. One will work harder and still not have the mechanics to do it as fast. It is simply easier to do a SINGLE pattern using 3 fingers than to do a more complex pattern using 4. Not saying that it cannot be done fast, but at maximum speeds just not as fast.

The exact same thing can be said about a PA player doing a C-scale, it can be done easier on a PA than on a button because of the mechanics.

 

[dak]

No, its more like asking a handicapped man and an Olympic runner to do the same distance. One will work harder and still not have the mechanics to do it as fast. It is simply easier to do a SINGLE pattern using 3 fingers than to do a more complex pattern using 4. Not saying that it cannot be done fast, but at maximum speeds just not as fast.

The exact same thing can be said about a PA player doing a C-scale, it can be done easier on a PA than on a button because of the mechanics.

I cannot vouch for it myself, but I heard that the C major scale was in terms of the mechanics one of the worst ones on a piano, with F♯ major being decidedly better matched to the fingers. Of course, mentally nothing can beat the simplicity of a C major scale on a piano keyboard.

 

[debra]

I can go very fast as well, but I have yet to see a PA player do it as fast as some even less talented button accordionists. The fact is the mechanics are simpler it is a simple single repeating 3 button pattern (2-3-4-2-3-4, or coming back 4-3-2-4-3-2) where the biggest movement is repeated and at no point do fingers cross under each other and no thumb is used.

The pattern for a PA is more complex and involves 4 fingers and mechanically more complex movement.

That's a very interesting comment. First of all on CBA (C-system) I use the pattern 1-2-3-1-2-3 as I'm from the "generation" that uses the thumb. Obviously on MIII you use 2-3-4-2-3-4.
But on PA I use the same pattern I learned for the piano. Starting from C that is 1-3-1-3-1-2-3-1-3-1-3-1-2 (ending with C). So it's a 3 finger pattern, and it works quite well on PA. I wonder what the 4-finger pattern is and whether it works better...

 

[Walker]

Chromatic scale on accordion:




Interesting glissando/gliding techniques for accordion: