Can you identify an accordion by sound alone (no visual access at all)?

[boxplayer4000]

After a long time listening to, repairing accordions and talking to their owners I have come to realize
that there’s a very wide range of hearing ability and perceptions.
I’d be interested to know if any of our accordion fanatics would be confident in identifying an accordion (maker, model etc.) simply by sound alone; having no sight of the accordion or player at all.
All of our perceptions depend on our 5 senses and when one is removed we’re much reduced in our capacity to decide.

 

[PhiliGol]

Wow that‘s definitely a challenge and somewhat would counteract the hype around the „legendary“ instruments. Presumably I wouldn’t be able to do so, if at all the bassoon of a Hohner Gola with Sordino closed. After all this to me still sounds unmatched by any other instrument.
Not sure if i‘d pass a blind test as of course it’s also a lot about the feeling of touching and playing such a jewel.

 

[Ventura]

for my money and my ear..

an Excelsior always sounds like an Excelsior

consistently, across the models, and through the ages
from the very beginning to the end of CEMEX

the geometry of their body work, their control of their
reedmaking process, their iron fisted control over materials,
their philosophy of "leading" the industry rather than
following fads or fashion

and many more reasons.. but you have heard me speak to their
reliability and consistency many times

and many times i have heard an Accordion, looked up or rounded a corner
and Yes, Virginia, there was an Excelsior there, and i smiled and shook
my head because i knew it before i saw it

n todays world with the commonality of materials etc. brand tonal personality
is now a product of marketing, hype, and if you are very lucky, someone
like Debra or Navoyski getting their hands on it first and voicing it to perfection

but back in the day..

another trueism is that a BELL always sounded really sweet, a very clean sound,
from the thousands of 3 reed mid-level student boxes they produced through
their flagship professional models

and it seems

i can always tell a legit French (Jazz/non-musette) accordion when i hear one,
as opposed to a French Sounding accordion, but i do not know why..
a certain sprightliness in the tone, a certain unencumbered brilliance..

just something about them.. the ones that had that special sauce..
i mean there are so many excellent Hammond Clones today, even
hiding inside the FR8, but i know damn well that when John (or i too)
sit down once in awhile and fire up our real live Laurens Hammond
relics in our studios, there is just a certain satisfaction as perfection
hits your ears and familiarity is felt under your hands

 

[Alan Sharkis]

I concur about Bell accordions. I heard a great example of one this past Sunday in the hands of Sy Kushner at a local library as part of a Klezmer group. But this one had a beautiful grille, unlike most I’ve seen, and it really sounded exotic in its “organ” register (LH.) ss befits the more oriental tunes of the klezmer genre (Terkishe, for you fans out there.) I had a short conversation with Mr. Kushner about it during a break.

 

[debra]

Identifying an accordion by sound alone is extremely hard. It works very well for some accordions, but many others sound too much alike.
I mostly listen to and work on somewhat higher end accordions (tipo a mano reeds or a mano, and always with cassotto, and mostly also with melody bass). There are some I can recognize just by listening to them. What is needed is to hear somewhat longer notes, and no tremolo. (Typical Balkan players play everything very fast and that makes it too hard to recognize the accordion.) The most distinctive sound is that of Pigini. I can often identify that the accordion is a Pigini after just a few seconds. I can often also recognize Bugari and Victoria but some more seconds are needed. I can sometimes but not always identify an Excelsior, and I recognize the Hohner Morino or Gola (but I could mix these two up). Somewhat strangely an Excelsior sounds quite differently from a Morino built by Excelsior. Both are nice, just different. I do not have enough listening experience with other brands. I cannot always identify a Scandalli correctly (compared to other accordions made in Castelfidardo). And while it takes no effort to identify a Russian bayan I need to concentrate hard (and the recording needs to be really good) to distinguish between a Jupiter (with the "open O" as first letter) and an AKKO or perhaps even a Zonta...
Tremolo is the great equalizer. An accordion with a musette sound is much harder to identify than a dry-tuned accordion.

 

[Riccardo]

I am unable to identify accordions by sound alone except for the obvious musette, tone chamber or out of tune, especially since hearing sensitivities seem to decrease with my "maturity" - not age!! I can add only that my Excelsior Symphony Grands were tuned to 442 by recommendation of several artists.
As a result they always appeared to 'stand out' when performing with other accordions as well as with other instruments during my career, and compounded whenever the mikes took over...and that was rare.
And as many of us know, the bass in Excelsiors seemed to be unusually powerful.. When I asked a few of the artisans why they were so distinguishable, the typical response was .."We don't know! It's simply there!!"

 

[Tom N]

I am unable to identify accordions by sound alone except for the obvious musette, tone chamber or out of tune, especially since hearing sensitivities seem to decrease with my "maturity" - not age!! I can add only that my Excelsior Symphony Grands were tuned to 442 by recommendation of several artists.
As a result they always appeared to 'stand out' when performing with other accordions as well as with other instruments during my career, and compounded whenever the mikes took over...and that was rare.
And as many of us know, the bass in Excelsiors seemed to be unusually powerful.. When I asked a few of the artisans why they were so distinguishable, the typical response was .."We don't know! It's simply there!!"

Why are some accordions tuned to 442? If you play in a group setting, do the guitars have to tune to the accordion?

 

[Dingo40]

I’d be interested to know if any of our accordion fanatics would be confident in identifying an accordion (maker, model etc.) simply by sound alone;

There was a thread on this very question some years ago,
As I remember it, one of our members provided several sound samples and challenged one and all to identify the instruments (makes) producing them.
Although the results were not exactly encouraging, the attempt provided considerable entertainment for members!
There was a similar instance of a double blind experiment in identifying a Stradivarius violin among a batch of lesser brands. What was interesting is no one succeeded with several amusing misattributions among the results!

 

[Zevy]

I might be able to identify a vintage Scandalli Super VI by sound. Of course it is identical to the Settimio Soprani Artist VI and the Bell 4511. But I’m not putting any money down on that!

 

[Zevy]

I concur about Bell accordions. I heard a great example of one this past Sunday in the hands of Sy Kushner at a local library as part of a Klezmer group. But this one had a beautiful grille, unlike most I’ve seen, and it really sounded exotic in its “organ” register (LH.) ss befits the more oriental tunes of the klezmer genre (Terkishe, for you fans out there.) I had a short conversation with Mr. Kushner about it during a break.

Sy Kushner's Bell is of the latest models that had the name "Bell" slapped on them. Mr. Mencaccini would import accordions, probably from Borsini, and sell them with the name Bell. They might be very good, even top quality accordions, but they are not related at all to the vintage Bells.

 

[Ventura]

i disagree

Aldo had exceptional skill and relationships of a very direct and
personal nature with his sources in Italy.. he didn't mind letting
someone else make his accordions, but only if they could do
as good a job as he could himself... nothing got past his ear or eye
if it wasn't worthy

personally i prefer the period when Galanti was his favored source

 

[Riccardo]

Re Tom's question about 442 tuning. Most of my performances were concert solo and whenever playing in an ensemble, I recall guitars, violins and other stringed instruments and others were usually tuned to a piano or oboe and sometimes the accordion, all depending on which instruments were available or took most of the leads and the type of music we played... Never recall having any comments or complaints... And of course accordion orchestras had a variety of tunings, makes, models, cassotto, etc and from dry to "extreme" musette.
Enjoyment of the music performed was the agenda... I'm from a generation in which I don't believe we micro-analyzed... Not suggesting this is the case today, but there appears to be some interest in that concept. All for the good of music generally and especially accordions I presume. Not meaning to disparage anyone or anything. Just an old-timer's opinion...I was asked.

 

[debra]

Why are some accordions tuned to 442? If you play in a group setting, do the guitars have to tune to the accordion?

This was discussed before...
Accordions were initially tuned all over the place, mostly somewhere between 440 and 444 but with larger deviations as well.
Then an ISO standard was established: A4=440Hz. But... over the years symphonic and philharmonic orchestras started tuning higher and have by now more or less settled on A4=442Hz. I read that the main cause for this change was that string instruments produce a bit more volume when the string tension increases (and tuning higher increases string tension). Of course there are limits: too much tension and the whole instrument may collaps/implode. Don't try to tune a 200 year old piano to 442Hz: it will likely buckle.
Many (most?) people are oblivious to the tuning differences, so when they go to a dealer to buy a new accordion they don't know there are different tuning frequencies, and the dealer will not ask the customer which tuning (s)he wants, because that unanswered question then results in no sale. Different accordion manufacturers use different default values (when the customer has not specified anything) and this then leads to problems in accordion ensembles. Pigini and Victoria tune to 442Hz by default, Bugari uses 440Hz, Hohner also uses 440Hz (both for the accordions they make in China and the ones they get Italians to make for them).
Despite wind instruments now mostly using 442Hz there was no problem when I performed as accordion solo using my 440Hz tuned Bugari. The other players in the band adjusted to 440Hz and all was fine.

 

[Riccardo]

Thank you. You explain it beautifully. I'm also aware of the symphony orchestra tunings. That's another career from years back. and another story but for a different audience. All I will admit to is that I was a close friend and colleague of the late Krzysztof Penderecki. Figure that one out!!

 

[boxplayer4000]

When I began this thread on Thursday last I did have a particular accordion in mind. That was the Shand Morino accordion which, while being known world-wide, is particularly popular in Scotland and the United Kingdom.
I make no claims at all of any special hearing abilities but I have no problem picking out that particular instrument, without seeing it. The Shand Morinos began life in the late 30s and continued to be produced in the decades immediately following the war. My own Hohner Morino 1VM is from the same era and the reeds are quite likely very similar to the ‘Shand’ ones, even to the extent that the tuning styles tend to be the same as well (ie. at least 20 cents +/- musette). However there are differences in the ‘Shand’ sound, particularly in the lower middle treble where the resonance makes it quite distinctive. My own possible theory for the differences in the sound (between my own piano accordion and the Shand diatonic) may be that the sound board of the Shand is smaller than the PA due to the reeds being different.
Apart from the ‘Shand Morino’ I struggle to identify other brands and like a few others on this thread are limited to only identifying quality and (hopefully) good tuning.

 

[Walker]

When I began this thread on Thursday last I did have a particular accordion in mind. That was the Shand Morino accordion which, while being known world-wide, is particularly popular in Scotland and the United Kingdom.
I make no claims at all of any special hearing abilities but I have no problem picking out that particular instrument, without seeing it. The Shand Morinos began life in the late 30s and continued to be produced in the decades immediately following the war. My own Hohner Morino 1VM is from the same era and the reeds are quite likely very similar to the ‘Shand’ ones, even to the extent that the tuning styles tend to be the same as well (ie. at least 20 cents +/- musette). However there are differences in the ‘Shand’ sound, particularly in the lower middle treble where the resonance makes it quite distinctive. My own possible theory for the differences in the sound (between my own piano accordion and the Shand diatonic) may be that the sound board of the Shand is smaller than the PA due to the reeds being different.
Apart from the ‘Shand Morino’ I struggle to identify other brands and like a few others on this thread are limited to only identifying quality and (hopefully) good tuning.

Ah, now you're talkin'!!!

For the uninitiated:



One question boxplayer4000.... I understand the Hohner Morino VM was double cassotto, but I didn't think the Hohner Shand Morino had a cassotto architecture at all. I'm probably wrong on that but.. that's what I thought gave the slight difference of tone between the models?

 

[Dingo40]

but I didn't think the Hohner Shand Morino had a cassotto architecture at all.

Could there be an answer here?
It is claimed, here, the Shand Morino, effectively, has a "pseudo" casotto chamber:
"How does this relate to our Shand Morino? Well although the blocks are mounted as normal, they are mounted below the keyboard. In order for the flow to reach the reeds it must first pass through the chamber comprised of the cavity between the fingerboard and backplate. The effect of this cavity would be similar to that of a true Cassotto chamber, through both of the mechanisms that I mentioned above. This arrangement is often referred to as a ‘pseudo-cassotto chamber’."
Full article:

Inside and Out Part 6 – The Shand Morino

Today we go back to Inside and Out and I’ve got one of the giants of the accordion world to take apart for your delectation and delight. For those of you who are new to the blog and don&#8217…

ukebert.wordpress.com

 

[Tom]

Blue Bell Polka, cool sound. I never knew about him, but seems iconic, thanks guys!

 

[Rosie C]

Why are some accordions tuned to 442? If you play in a group setting, do the guitars have to tune to the accordion?

That's what we would have to do - but I have a fair idea how grumpy our mandolin player would get if he had to re-tune all 8 strings, so I've taken an electronic tuner with me whenever I've bought an accordion to ensure A=440.

 

[boxplayer4000]

Walker: Both the Morino VM and the 1VM are double cassotto.
The Shand Morino has no cassotto but has all the treble 16’ bassoon reeds on one reed block, at the inside/farthest away from the front of the accordion. This arrangement has a name (which I’ve forgotten) but has a decided effect on the tone.
Dingo40: Thanks for the video. It explains well the ‘pseudo’ cassotto effect on the bassoon reeds.
A rare accordion indeed, and a rare man who had a massive effect on the UK, Ireland and everywhere in the world where those emigrants had settled.
Thanks to all who have explored the subject.