Comparing two accordions for learning CB layout

[Jaime_Dergut]

Hello everyone,


Today I have something that I would like to discuss with you.

I still have a desire to learn CB accordion, and I recently got a soviet one from Ukraine for a reasonable price.

However, is not comfortable to play and I was looking forward to get a new one that it is more comfortable for me.

So far, I got these two options to replace them:

Hohner Amati III B 3 row CBA C-system, 2/4 MM, 34/48 (3+3) — ACCORDIONOLOGY

3 row CBA C-system, 2/4 MM, Stepped Keyboard, 34/48 (3+3) 12.6 lb. sn 344012

www.accordionology.com

6430 - Black Hohner Nova II C System CBA 5 Row MM 62 72

Type: Chromatic Button Accordion C System Reeds: 2/4 MM A440Hz +15 Cents Treble: 62 Buttons, 9.5(24cm) Key to Key, 2 Registers Bass: 72 Bass Buttons, 3 Registers Weight: 15.5lbs / 7kg Features:Lightweight with a German/Italian Musette Tuning, C Sys

www.libertybellows.com

From my opinion, the Honner seems to me like the best choice of the two.

However, both are in C system and I would prefer B one for cultural reasons, and also because I want to play one of those mighty russian bayans one day to play classical music on streets. They are also still quite expensive and I feel somehow guilty on spending more money on it.

What are your thoughts? Please, share them with me and thanks for reading.

 

[petch]

You can get a Russian bayan in C system, they will make them for you or you can find the occasional used one. What do you mean by cultural reasons? Outside some very virtuosic pieces everything is playable on both systems

I would suggest buying whichever system is is most available in your area

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

You can get a Russian bayan in C system, they will make them for you or you can find the occasional used one. What do you mean by cultural reasons? Outside some very virtuosic pieces everything is playable on both systems

I would suggest buying whichever system is is most available in your area

I was also thinking that I could get a C bayan in the future.


By cultural references I mean just that it was russian influence that inspire me to play accordion so it makes me feel closer to them. As strange that may sound. It doesn't really matter.

Not only russians but eastern european people in general.


The system that it mostly available in my area is C so probably that's the best option just out of convenience.

 

[petch]

I was also thinking that I could get a C bayan in the future.


By cultural references I mean just that it was russian influence that inspire me to play accordion so it makes me feel closer to them. As strange that may sound. It doesn't really matter.

Not only russians but eastern european people in general.


The system that it mostly available in my area is C so probably that's the best option just out of convenience.

I had a quick look around on the Liberty Bellows site that you linked earlier and they had some B System models, but they're a bit more expensive than the ones you linked. Not sure what your budget is but $3000 isn't a terrible price for a converter model if you wanted to give free bass a go. It is a lot of money though!

6396 - Black Scandalli Conservatorio C231 Chromatic Button Accordion B System Converter LM 62 78

Type: Chromatic Button Accordion B Reeds: 2/3 LM A442Hz Treble: 62 Keys (37 Tones G/G), 9(23cm) Key to Key, 3 Registers Bass: 78 Bass Buttons, 1 Registers, Free Basses: 36 E/E Weight: 15lbs / 7kg Features: B system treble and B system free bass converter

www.libertybellows.com

 

[Walker]

I had a quick look around on the Liberty Bellows site that you linked earlier and they had some B System models, but they're a bit more expensive than the ones you linked. Not sure what your budget is but $3000 isn't a terrible price for a converter model if you wanted to give free bass a go. It is a lot of money though!

6396 - Black Scandalli Conservatorio C231 Chromatic Button Accordion B System Converter LM 62 78

Type: Chromatic Button Accordion B Reeds: 2/3 LM A442Hz Treble: 62 Keys (37 Tones G/G), 9(23cm) Key to Key, 3 Registers Bass: 78 Bass Buttons, 1 Registers, Free Basses: 36 E/E Weight: 15lbs / 7kg Features: B system treble and B system free bass converter

www.libertybellows.com

That's quite nice Petch, but what's those funny dot-things where the keys should be?

 

[tcabot]

If it is a mass-produced soviet box that you got, chances are it was never designed as a playable instrument - most of them are absolutely horrible.
Also, most were designed for the "traditional" 4-finger technique with the thumb held behind the keyboard. Such keyboards will not place your hand in a comfortable position for the thumb-over technique (just like the boxes with the keyboard at the bottom of the body for thumb-over technique will not place your hand comfortably for traditional fingering).
At least you know you want to persevere with the squeezebox, so consider it a learning experience & welcome to the addiction.

What you want is a 5-row B system - avoid 3 or 4 row models. The 5-row has got a different fingering system that is far easier and more comfortable than anything to do with 3 rows (or 4, which still requires you to know the 3-row technique).
If C system is more popular in your area, then it will be easier to find a C system teacher...However, if you go for the 5-row B system and use the Osokin fingering system, you don't really need a teacher who knows B-griff, as all fingerings are very intuitive & natural.

There were plenty of B-griff Italian boxes built for Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, etc. Some would have made it into the USA. So you should be able to find a used one. I think the market balances itself out - there's fewer B-griff boxes, but also fewer people who want to buy them. Works out about the same.

PS the Scandalli is very small - not even 3 octaves in the right ?

PPS The Amati is only a 3-row and is tiny - over $1k for THAT?
Nova should be easily available in B as well as C if it's new.

 

[NickC]

I can understand wanting to pick an instrument that is authentic to the style that you are playing. That is what I did and I am very happy with the decision.

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

I had a quick look around on the Liberty Bellows site that you linked earlier and they had some B System models, but they're a bit more expensive than the ones you linked. Not sure what your budget is but $3000 isn't a terrible price for a converter model if you wanted to give free bass a go. It is a lot of money though!

6396 - Black Scandalli Conservatorio C231 Chromatic Button Accordion B System Converter LM 62 78

Type: Chromatic Button Accordion B Reeds: 2/3 LM A442Hz Treble: 62 Keys (37 Tones G/G), 9(23cm) Key to Key, 3 Registers Bass: 78 Bass Buttons, 1 Registers, Free Basses: 36 E/E Weight: 15lbs / 7kg Features: B system treble and B system free bass converter

www.libertybellows.com

That seems like a wonderful Scandalli, and converter makes it even more tempting. Still, 3000 is a lot of money. I will have to think about it.

I like that it only has bassoon and clarinet reeds, which is what I want.

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

If it is a mass-produced soviet box that you got, chances are it was never designed as a playable instrument - most of them are absolutely horrible.
Also, most were designed for the "traditional" 4-finger technique with the thumb held behind the keyboard. Such keyboards will not place your hand in a comfortable position for the thumb-over technique (just like the boxes with the keyboard at the bottom of the body for thumb-over technique will not place your hand comfortably for traditional fingering).
At least you know you want to persevere with the squeezebox, so consider it a learning experience & welcome to the addiction.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that. I just find hard to believe people could spent hours playing on these instruments. I honestly think I would rather sell it soon to avoid getting sore muscles.


Having said that, yes, I think the old bayan fulfilled its purpose and now I know I want to keep learning chromatic buttons layout.

What you want is a 5-row B system - avoid 3 or 4 row models. The 5-row has got a different fingering system that is far easier and more comfortable than anything to do with 3 rows (or 4, which still requires you to know the 3-row technique).
If C system is more popular in your area, then it will be easier to find a C system teacher...However, if you go for the 5-row B system and use the Osokin fingering system, you don't really need a teacher who knows B-griff, as all fingerings are very intuitive & natural.

That's good to know. Thank you. I'm looking after the best way to avoid soreness and be comfortable at playing.

I will keep an eye if I can find a good accordion with a 5 row system. Petch linked one that is very nice but price is too high for somebody who is still learning, I think. Still, I would like to try a free bass converter.

PS the Scandalli is very small - not even 3 octaves in the right ?

PPS The Amati is only a 3-row and is tiny - over $1k for THAT?
Nova should be easily available in B as well as C if it's new.

Based on what you told me before. I think I would skip the Amati for sure.

I'm also thinking that I would prefer a dry sound since I think it fits better for classical music, which is what I want to play in the future. And it is also easier and cheaper to find in North America, or so I've been told.

 

[Ffingers]

If it is a mass-produced soviet box that you got, chances are it was never designed as a playable instrument - most of them are absolutely horrible.
Also, most were designed for the "traditional" 4-finger technique with the thumb held behind the keyboard. Such keyboards will not place your hand in a comfortable position for the thumb-over technique (just like the boxes with the keyboard at the bottom of the body for thumb-over technique will not place your hand comfortably for traditional fingering).
At least you know you want to persevere with the squeezebox, so consider it a learning experience & welcome to the addiction.

What you want is a 5-row B system - avoid 3 or 4 row models. The 5-row has got a different fingering system that is far easier and more comfortable than anything to do with 3 rows (or 4, which still requires you to know the 3-row technique).
If C system is more popular in your area, then it will be easier to find a C system teacher...However, if you go for the 5-row B system and use the Osokin fingering system, you don't really need a teacher who knows B-griff, as all fingerings are very intuitive & natural.

There were plenty of B-griff Italian boxes built for Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, etc. Some would have made it into the USA. So you should be able to find a used one. I think the market balances itself out - there's fewer B-griff boxes, but also fewer people who want to buy them. Works out about the same.

PS the Scandalli is very small - not even 3 octaves in the right ?

PPS The Amati is only a 3-row and is tiny - over $1k for THAT?
Nova should be easily available in B as well as C if it's new.

There is not really a fingering “system” for 5 row nor 6 row CBAs - the buttons are utilised in whatever manner suits the combination of music and player.
It is all about the ergonomics: Stick to a rigid style and you will find yourself wasting a huge amount of the possibilities which the button keyboard offers.

 

[tcabot]

There is not really a fingering “system” for 5 row nor 6 row CBAs

Yes there is. Osokin. Published in 1976.
Also used (expanded?) by Semenov in his 2003 book as discussed in one of the recent threads. Developed specifically for 5-row B-griff and completely different from the traditional 3-row approach, rendering the latter obsolete. It is, indeed, a "system" as the fingerings are based on key principles such as being able to finger everything in one comfortable relaxed hand position (second position, in old money), sticking to 3+4 or 4+3 fingering patterns, interchanging 1-4 & 2-3 interval fingering, etc.

Just like there was the traditional 4-finger 3-row system based on a separate fingering pattern for each row, 3 hand positions & anticipating position changes based on the score.

I'm not saying that one cannot deviate from a "base" system to seek more suitable fingerings for a particular passage in a particular piece if that is applicable, but it's advisable to start with some default fingering system, otherwise everyone will be trying to reinvent the wheel while severely lacking experience of fingering the CBA - the results in most cases are quite predictable...

 

[petch]

That seems like a wonderful Scandalli, and converter makes it even more tempting. Still, 3000 is a lot of money. I will have to think about it.

I like that it only has bassoon and clarinet reeds, which is what I want.

I've got access to a very similar accordion at the moment (C system however) and the size and weight is very nice for how much range it has (3 full octaves in each hand). Yes, doesn't sound quite as nice as a big cassotto accordion but it makes up for it in just how easy it is to pick up and play

 

[debra]

I was also thinking that I could get a C bayan in the future.

It is certainly possible. I have seen several C-system Russian bayans already, and I play a C-system AKKO bayan myself.

 

[TomBR]

My vote, for what it's worth!

You're in the USA and a bayan is what you really want to play.
Hang on in there until a B system comes your way. If you go down the C system route you'll make it even harder ever to find what you want.

I assume the uncomfortable instrument you've got is B system. Make what use of it you can to get a flying start when you get the right instrument.

 

[dak]

It is certainly possible. I have seen several C-system Russian bayans already, and I play a C-system AKKO bayan myself.

For new instruments, you can get anything usually. When scouring the market for affordable used instruments, however, picking the system usual for the instrument type you prefer affords you a lot more opportunities. Looking for a B system instrument with a compelling musette tuning and styling is going to end up a challenge, for example. Well, maybe you'll be successful in Belgium, but then you may well end up with a Belgian bass system...

 

[tcabot]

Looking for a B system instrument with a compelling musette tuning and styling is going to end up a challenge, for exampl

Not really. Look for ads from the Netherlands & Belgium. Sometimes Germany.
Lots and lots of very high quality musette B-griff accordions. In fact, imho Accordiola musette is one of the better sounding ones.

In fact, I found it a lot harder to find a compelling dry MM B-griff accordion in europe. The old soviet boxes that are being sold are usually so bad, even folks in the east don't want them.

 

[debra]

Not really. Look for ads from the Netherlands & Belgium. Sometimes Germany.
Lots and lots of very high quality musette B-griff accordions. In fact, imho Accordiola musette is one of the better sounding ones...

Indeed, Accordiola used to be quite popular around here. Sadly most of them have horrible tremolo (Amsterdam tuning) which in MMM is something around -25, 0, +25. Headache guaranteed within 30 minutes of listening to an orchestra where they all have this...
But of course the accordions themselves are of good quality and can sound really good when the tremolo is reduced to more reasonable values.

 

[stickista]

If it is a mass-produced soviet box that you got, chances are it was never designed as a playable instrument - most of them are absolutely horrible.
Also, most were designed for the "traditional" 4-finger technique with the thumb held behind the keyboard. Such keyboards will not place your hand in a comfortable position for the thumb-over technique (just like the boxes with the keyboard at the bottom of the body for thumb-over technique will not place your hand comfortably for traditional fingering).
At least you know you want to persevere with the squeezebox, so consider it a learning experience & welcome to the addiction.

What you want is a 5-row B system - avoid 3 or 4 row models. The 5-row has got a different fingering system that is far easier and more comfortable than anything to do with 3 rows (or 4, which still requires you to know the 3-row technique).
If C system is more popular in your area, then it will be easier to find a C system teacher...However, if you go for the 5-row B system and use the Osokin fingering system, you don't really need a teacher who knows B-griff, as all fingerings are very intuitive & natural.

There were plenty of B-griff Italian boxes built for Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, etc. Some would have made it into the USA. So you should be able to find a used one. I think the market balances itself out - there's fewer B-griff boxes, but also fewer people who want to buy them. Works out about the same.

PS the Scandalli is very small - not even 3 octaves in the right ?

PPS The Amati is only a 3-row and is tiny - over $1k for THAT?
Nova should be easily available in B as well as C if it's new.

You have any links for “Osokin System”? Haven’t heard of it and not coming up with anything myself.

 

[tcabot]

I can ping you a message, but it's purely for a 5-row B-griff CBA, so I don't think it applies to you?

 

[EdBouchard]

My 2 cents on this discussion. I’ve been playing accordion since I was 8. I’m 82. My photo is from c1957, when I was about 17. It was taken at an accordion school where I was teaching accordion. I also competed in contests back then, playing transcriptions of violin concerto movements and the like. There weren’t a lot of jobs for a “classical accordionist”. I’ve made a living in other ways. Although, in the mid-1960s, I had a great gig playing church services for a National Council of Churches group of ministers group that met daily. I’ve always had an accordion to practice.
In the 1970s, I got interested in free bass. I’ve spent time with 5 different keyboard layouts: quint, Geraci, Kuehl, Moshino, C-system, and B-system.
I do not recommend quint. Maybe I didn’t give it a chance but it seems terribly limited. I’ve never seen a YouTube video of anyone playing even a Bach 2-part Inv3ntion on one. Correct me if I’m wrong,
Vince Geraci was my favorite player in the late 1950s, early 60s.. Don’t remember the date, but in the early 1970s, I went to Vince’s studio to ask him for advice. To my great surprise, he gave me his magnificent Bell accordion to try out. As I recall it had a custom free bass consisting of 2-tiers of piano like keyboards that were about 2 inches deep. Maybe it was 3-tiers. The bass strap was a like a sliding harness. One could actually use the thumb on the lower tier and the other 4 fingers on the upper. The treble side had an extended keyboard too. It had the best reeds of any accordion I’ve ever played. The bass notes sounded great too, but I’m maybe too fussy. I didn’t like the tonal balance. Also, I had difficulty with the bass side playing mechanics. When I brought the instrument back to Vince, he seem sad. I heard later that he died of cancer shortly afterwards.
Next, I was given a Kuehl system freebass to try out. I didn’t get it from Bud, but had attended an intensive workshop he gave. The Kuehl system has buttons laid out like strings on a violin — only there are 8 rows rather than 4. I’ve never played violin, but suspect the scale fingerings are quite similar to a violin. The keyboard was okay. I didn’t like the quality of the reeds on the instrument that was given to me.
Next I visited Mario Moschino. Mario sold me an accordion with the Moschino system for a very good price. It’s a 4-row chromatic doubled in 8-rows. It was quite okay. But again the tonality put me off, I didn’t practice much. The sound didn’t enthrall me. But it was a pro instrument with handmade reeds. I did loan it to a friend who played it on a couple recordings. Check out “Italy” performed by Mike Ferro Larry Gray. I think Mikewrote the sings is on vocals, Larry plays all the instrumentals, including accordion and cello. On the album he’s playing percussion, keyboards, all manner of instruments.
Around 2006, I finally found a free bass accordion with a sound and tonal balance that beckoned me to practice. It is made my Castagnari, a converter C-system free bass. It has gorgeous tone on trebke and bass. I got to where I could play some Bach Inventions and Sinfonias on it. It has a great sound for Chorales too. Not sure of the year, but I was playing it in a 3-piece band in a musical when it needed to go into the shop for repairs. I had sold the Moshino, didn’t have a backup I could play. Fortunately I found a used Roland Fr3s on eBay. The bass was already setup to convert to C-system free bass. So now I had a backup.
I find the Roland accordion to be quite okay. They did a good job. The Fr3s maybe doesn’t compare to a fine acoustic free bass like the Castagnsi. Nevertheless it pleases a fussbudget like me.
However, I started developing a rather bad case of osteoarthritis. I wanted to post some YouTube videos encouraging pleopke to try free bass on a Roland. But I could hardly use my thumbs to play a simple scale on the treble without errors. There’s a YouTube video of me that i should probably take down.
My thumbs are now totally dysfunctional for any piano keyboard. I gave the Castagnari to my friend Larry. He’s starting to use it on gigs. Maybe we’ll hear a recording soon. . Fortunately I have bee able to obtain a Roland Fr4xb. My other 4 fingers work just fine. A thumb would be useful on a CBA, but not as necessary as on a PA. The Fr4xb came configured like a B-system bayan. I’ve left that way. I also had a Russian bayan made in Tula. It had great sounding reeds too. But it kept breaking down all the time. I’d get it back from the shop and a couple weeks later something else would go wrong.
I practice the Fr4xb everyday.
I very much like C-system and B-system. Moving between B- and C- is probably like transposing. Maybe easier. The fingering parters are essentially the same. The notes are in a somewhat different order. B- or C-free bass is far, far better than quint. Either CBA keyboard is at least marginally preferable for the treble side too. For anyone starting out, that’s what I’d strongly recommend.
Since I’m learning a new keyboard started looking a books for learning piano. Found materials that are fun to play. Maybe I’ll post something soon.