Excelsior Model 312?

[KiwiSqueezer]

Continuing in my futile attempt to understand the endless variety of accordions... This box has popped up for sale, although I'm not in the market for it. It seems to be an 'real' Excelsior, not an Accordiana, and is described as a Model 312, which is imprinted on its underside. I'm aware that there were 'Accordiana' Model 312 accordions, which looked identical, apart from the logos. Is this one a superior version? What puzzles me are the treble switches, labelled 'Bassoon', 'Organ', 'Melodeon', 'Master', 'Musette', 'Clarinet', and 'Oboe'. Presumably it has LMM reeds, but is there also fourth set in there, to explain the 'Oboe' voice?

 

[PhiliGol]

Are you sure it has 3 reed-sets only?
The musette suggests it has (at least) MM.
The Bassoon should justify an L-set.
Clarinet (typically an MH) and Organ (LH) suggest there also is a high reed-set.

 

[Ventura]

it is 3 reed LMH

reminding all that shift labels were a moving target and not
standardized way back when

these are excellent, solidly built accordions, so if the price
is right grab it

 

[PhiliGol]

it is 3 reed LMH

I don't want to challenge this statement as I don't know the instrument.
However it needs some phantasy what selection out of LMH sounds anything like a musette

 

[dak]

One guess would be that it is LMM and you get to pick either of the M separately (and they differ somewhat in sound). However, to make this musically useful, you'd need a rather flat tremolo (so that the tremolo reed alone does not sound too off-key) and that would not really deserve the title "musette" (one vernacular for a flat tremolo without piccolo would be "violin"). A different guess would be that there is some kind of jalousie or other sound-changing contraption that is engaged by one coupler and not the other.

 

[Ventura]

Debra can explain it better, but sometimes the H reedset is tuned a bit sharp
and then it has a musette like beat when coupled with the M reed

but one needs hands on the specific accordion to know exactly

there were no strange contraptions in these excelsiors

it is an LMH accordion

same model and series excelsior LMM accordions had 5 shifts, always.
same model LMMH had 9 shifts, always.

 

[PhiliGol]

Anyway it's a simple binary engineering problem.
3 reed-sets gives 2³ = 8 options; excluding "all off" results in 7 switches - exactly what this model features.
I dare to fill in 2/8 of the "truth-table" and leave the rest to the experts

 

[dak]

Anyway it's a simple binary engineering problem.
3 reed-sets gives 2³ = 8 options; excluding "all off" results in 7 switches - exactly what this model features.
I dare to fill in 2/8 of the "truth-table" and leave the rest to the experts

The Swiss reed numbering system is like that but in reverse: L reed last. And of course a tremolo comes in as 2, not exactly binary.

Anyway, my old lady-size Contello had LMH reed sets and 5 registers (it was missing LM and MH, just had L M H LH LMH). And some accordions feature repeats in order to save the player from extreme distances for hitting a register. So the number of register switches (and even differently named ones) is not a sure-fire indication.

 

[PhiliGol]

You can always re-arrange the headlines - the system of the truth-table won't essentially change.
what's your suggestion how to map the 7 switches?
In particular how to answer Kiwi's original question "to explain the 'Oboe' voice?"

 

[dak]

You can always re-arrange the headlines - the system of the truth-table won't essentially change.
what's your suggestion how to map the 7 switches?

In particular how to answer Kiwi's original question "to explain the 'Oboe' voice?"

Well, it's conspicuous that we don't have "bandoneon". And "Melodeon" tends to include tremolo, too. How about a heavily underregistered 4-reed?

Bassoon L
Clarinet M
Oboe MH
Musette MMH
Melodeon LMM
Organ LMH
Master LMMH

The problem is that Bassoon, Clarinet, Oboe, Organ are all dry registers, Musette and Melodeon (and consequently Master) are tremolo registers. You don't get 4 dry registers with less than 3 dry reeds.

Alternatively, there is some kind of jalousie or other sound redirection: there are sound hole arrangements in the middle of the grille, but also extra holes above the couplers.

 

[Ventura]

in the late 40's and 1950's you had all kinds of registrations and
shift mechanisms.. there were LMMH trebles with 4 shifts, there
were LMH Contello's with 5 shifts, there were Scandalli's with labels like
"Fagotto" so i don't think you can say labels always meant something uniform except
a vague correlation between the pitch of the orchestral instrument name used
and the reed-block it sits on

it sometimes takes decades for standards to emerge and win over 99% of an industry

there were many single palm shift accordions that were LMMM on and MMM off
with waterfall plastic keys

there were early Pancordion Flapper's that worked like Excelsior Rockers

you name it, someone had it

the only thing i believe as fact was that the seminal modern shift concept came
from Charles Nunzio, in conversations with Settimo Soprani, and first implemented
in Nunziola's or other school brands he brokered, and then in Settimo's too, and
then the others raced to figure out something they could do in a similar way as
this was obviously going to be a sales pitch closing argument at retail

 

[KiwiSqueezer]

Well, I think this is still a bit of a puzzle. I like puzzles - I'm a nerd, and like to understand things, and am trying to learn about accordions, so I apologise if I seem to be flogging a dead horse.

Let's assume this is a 3-reed instrument - which seems likely - providing seven possible voices. The musette voice implies one set of reeds is 'off-tune', either a second M set, or an H set. Let's call them M* and H* for convenience.

Let's dispose of the 'Bassoon', 'Clarinet', 'Master' and 'Musette' voices, whose reeds are obvious, for both LMM* and LMH* configurations, assuming a credible 'pseudo-musette' can be provided by MH* (and why not?). In an earlier post, I asked about this possibility - from a theoretical standpoint - before I was aware of this accordion. There wasn't much enthusiasm for the idea though...

Two of the three remaining voices, 'Organ' and 'Melodion' are presumably therefore LM and LH* (in a LMH* set), or LM and LM* (in a LMM* set), if 'Melodion' implies a degree of tremelo - but 'Organ' is characteristically LH, isn't it?

That leaves 'Oboe' as a single-reed voice, either M* or H*. So you end up with either a half-hearted, pseudo-musette plus an out-of-tune piccolo, called 'Oboe', or a 'proper' musette plus an out-of-tune clarinet, called 'Oboe'. Neither seems very convincing, but the second perhaps more so...

I also asked whether labelling the box 'Excelsior' implied that it was a superior version of the commoner(?) Accordiana model 312. Or was it just an example of badge-engineering?

 

[OuijaBoard]

Well, I think this is still a bit of a puzzle. I like puzzles - I'm a nerd, and like to understand things, and am trying to learn about accordions, so I apologise if I seem to be flogging a dead horse.

Let's assume this is a 3-reed instrument - which seems likely - providing seven possible voices. The musette voice implies one set of reeds is 'off-tune', either a second M set, or an H set. Let's call them M* and H* for convenience.

Let's dispose of the 'Bassoon', 'Clarinet', 'Master' and 'Musette' voices, whose reeds are obvious, for both LMM* and LMH* configurations, assuming a credible 'pseudo-musette' can be provided by MH* (and why not?). In an earlier post, I asked about this possibility - from a theoretical standpoint - before I was aware of this accordion. There wasn't much enthusiasm for the idea though...

Two of the three remaining voices, 'Organ' and 'Melodion' are presumably therefore LM and LH* (in a LMH* set), or LM and LM* (in a LMM* set), if 'Melodion' implies a degree of tremelo - but 'Organ' is characteristically LH, isn't it?

That leaves 'Oboe' as a single-reed voice, either M* or H*. So you end up with either a half-hearted, pseudo-musette plus an out-of-tune piccolo, called 'Oboe', or a 'proper' musette plus an out-of-tune clarinet, called 'Oboe'. Neither seems very convincing, but the second perhaps more so...

I also asked whether labelling the box 'Excelsior' implied that it was a superior version of the commoner(?) Accordiana model 312. Or was it just an example of badge-engineering?

Well, here are the LB folks demo-ing what's billed as an E-312, with 7 registers on the treble side. They are telling us it's an LMM. But, it's not at all the same 312 form or logo as the one you are asking about. And there's no lettering or labels apparent on the switches.

4537 - Black Excelsior 312 Piano Accordion LMM 41 120

Type: Piano Accordion Reeds: 3/4 LMM Treble: 41 Keys, 19(48.5cm) Key to Key, 7 Registers Bass: 120 Bass Buttons, 3 Registers Weight: 23lbs / 10.4kg Features: Versatile with Italian musette (+/- 15 cents)

www.libertybellows.com

But the plot thickens: Here is a 312 that has the same coat-of-arms-ish marque as yours. This too is a 7-switch. But none of them read, "Musette." Which begs the question--Since they know how to leave off the "Musette" label on one of these 7-switch babies, what does it imply that yours does have that lettering? . . . . Perhaps it was a custom config.

Vintage Excelsior Model 312 Made in Italy Piano Accordion w/ internal microphone | Reverb

Fully Functional. Condition as seen in photos. With strap and microphone cord.Specifications7 Register Bass120 Bass Buttons3 Registers41 KeysColor: BlackWeight: approx. 9.5KgLength Key to Key 19.5in (49cm)With Bass and Volume controls

reverb.com

 

[PhiliGol]

Well, I think this is still a bit of a puzzle. I like puzzles - I'm a nerd, and like to understand things, and am trying to learn about accordions, so I apologise if I seem to be flogging a dead horse.

Let's assume this is a 3-reed instrument - which seems likely - providing seven possible voices. The musette voice implies one set of reeds is 'off-tune', either a second M set, or an H set. Let's call them M* and H* for convenience.

Let's dispose of the 'Bassoon', 'Clarinet', 'Master' and 'Musette' voices, whose reeds are obvious, for both LMM* and LMH* configurations, assuming a credible 'pseudo-musette' can be provided by MH* (and why not?). In an earlier post, I asked about this possibility - from a theoretical standpoint - before I was aware of this accordion. There wasn't much enthusiasm for the idea though...

Two of the three remaining voices, 'Organ' and 'Melodion' are presumably therefore LM and LH* (in a LMH* set), or LM and LM* (in a LMM* set), if 'Melodion' implies a degree of tremelo - but 'Organ' is characteristically LH, isn't it?

That leaves 'Oboe' as a single-reed voice, either M* or H*. So you end up with either a half-hearted, pseudo-musette plus an out-of-tune piccolo, called 'Oboe', or a 'proper' musette plus an out-of-tune clarinet, called 'Oboe'. Neither seems very convincing, but the second perhaps more so...

I also asked whether labelling the box 'Excelsior' implied that it was a superior version of the commoner(?) Accordiana model 312. Or was it just an example of badge-engineering?

I think you solved the puzzle - I try to confirm it.

Let's continue to assume it's a LMH-config.
Let's further assume that it's nothing else but a re-labelled Accordiana 312 (vice-versa resp.) which is demo'ed here and the switch-arrangement is identical to that one shown in the demo.

Then the reed-set / switch assignment is as follows:


I'd agree that the M reed-set is tuned a bit sharp (or flat) as all register engaging the M-set sound a bit "rough" in the video.
Then of course you could call the M*H a "Musette" - caused by some beating due to the offset M-tuning.
Subsequently what is labelled Oboe sounds like what would be labelled Piccolo nowadays: the H-reed-set.

As Ventura said - obviously there is no common standard for register-names, naming-conventions if at all.
As this naming-convention developed over quite a period of time and there is great degree of freedom to depart from it, you can see different names for the "same" register even within a brand. E.g. on a Hohner Gola (at least on a mid 60's) the M-set is labeled "Oboe" while on a Morino VS it's labeled Clarinet (which is the MH on the Gola and vice-versa).

 

[Ventura]

ok, your question..

while accodriana's were very well built and have stood the test of time
quite well, the difference between a lower level of any model and the
"Excelsior" level, or further "pro" level, was reflected in the materials
used during construction.

this may include, for example, key-tops and buttons made in factory from
raw materials VS: keytops from a commercial supplier, Reedblocks with
various types of wood for the bottom plate and the chambers, routed
reedbocks vs: matchstick glued together reedblocks. interior finishing of
all wood surfaces, higher grade or thicker bellows materials, keys made of
kilned wood, and obviously a higher grade of reeds.

and while the bodies would be identical in dimensional form, the wood combination
used in the excelsior badged version likely reflects a better selection of woods
or kilned woods as well

the CEMEX/Excelsior factory in Castlefidardo had it's own kiln on premises, and
the ability to make every single piece of an accordion from raw material.

Total vertical integration.. no other accordion factory ever achieved this..

indeed, the Professional models, every part WAS made on premises
and a 960 had something like 28 different types of wood used during construction

the matching excelsior vs accordiana or excelsiola would lie somewhere in between

 

[John M]

ok, your question..

while accodriana's were very well built and have stood the test of time
quite well, the difference between a lower level of any model and the
"Excelsior" level, or further "pro" level, was reflected in the materials
used during construction.

this may include, for example, key-tops and buttons made in factory from
raw materials VS: keytops from a commercial supplier, Reedblocks with
various types of wood for the bottom plate and the chambers, routed
reedbocks vs: matchstick glued together reedblocks. interior finishing of
all wood surfaces, higher grade or thicker bellows materials, keys made of
kilned wood, and obviously a higher grade of reeds.

and while the bodies would be identical in dimensional form, the wood combination
used in the excelsior badged version likely reflects a better selection of woods
or kilned woods as well

the CEMEX/Excelsior factory in Castlefidardo had it's own kiln on premises, and
the ability to make every single piece of an accordion from raw material.

Total vertical integration.. no other accordion factory ever achieved this..

indeed, the Professional models, every part WAS made on premises
and a 960 had something like 28 different types of wood used during construction

the matching excelsior vs accordiana or excelsiola would lie somewhere in between

Ventura -- I bought a 960 a few years back in Chicago from a Polish fellow (he had about 8 accordions for sale. He was in his 90's, was moving back to Poland because the local nursing homes he visited had a huge variety of nationality discipline workers (not Polish) and he wanted to be with workers & fellow patients that spoke his language -- that was Poland, where he is now, in a Polish nursing home, and very happy.

My question is: how many variations were there of the 960? I realize the specs were the same but how did they change through the years due to buy outs/company changes -- like when did they stop using 28 different types of woods? I think you can still buy a 960 today, but I would guess it would not have 28 different types of wood -- maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Ventura]

a: when Pigini bought them out, and moved some of their stuff
to the Pigini factory. the color of the grill cloth changed and
then they had a newer grill with smaller squares, the shifts changed
hue in a subtle way too. no ides what else they changed or even if they
continued to use Excelsior body forms, or if they just incorporated
Pigini bodies under the Excelsior cosmetics. You would have to take
two apart piece by piece to find what they kept from Cemex and what they changed

the Kiln was left to the property, which was sold off, it has not been fired since and
is just used as a run down storage area, afaik, by subsequent owners

there were earlier versions of the 960 that had different shifts, but i do not know if
that goes all the way back to New York, or if the 9xx models originated in Italy.
(i think so)
Jim D, certainly knows way more than i do of the earlier transition period,
and what models were offered when. If you need the 960 serviced you
probably should go visit him before he retires as likely no-one in the USA
would have more familiarity with Excelsior r&r

While there are disagreements over the management of the factory in Italy, it remained
open and in the same location from day 1 until Pigini got it, and the equipment
and tooling from New York was still there and some of it in use until Pigini.'s time

if there was any difference between "Excelsior" and "CEMEX" management it sure didn't
make a damn bit of difference to Art Van Damme. it would have been CEMEX during
the Hohner subcontracting period for the Morino's and (perhaps.. hint hint) other models
too so Hohner didn't see any difference either as to who was the best, most thorough,
most reliable, most consistent.

there are anecdotes of specific Italy Symphony models having other branded reeds, but during the
Cemex period i know they made all their own reeds, and even (quietly) bought out one of the
famous reed-makers nearby so they could provide a choice for insistent customers in the special
pro models (but not the 9xx line)

they prided themselves on being able to make a whole dang accordion from scratch,
and the 9xx line was their bragging point.. including the MIDI designed and built in house.
the Bass mechanism changed slightly after Electronic switching was incorporated
into the mechanical design

you could spec some things on a 960 or 940 order, like they had different keyboards
available. the standard was a simple solid light colored keytop, and of course tuning.

there were only 2 Ex. importers in the USA.. Castiglione and ALAS/Accordion o rama (?) in New York.
John had most of the high end orders and sales, New York brought in 911 MIDI units by the ton,
but they also carried the Excelsior knock-off look-alikes, like the Cintioli's had in Philly,
i think theirs were named Avanti or Arpeggio or something, and they focused on selling OFF the
high end excelsior's cuz their markup was way higher on the look-alikes.. i never could
understand why CEMEX put up with it

 

[John M]

Thanks for your reply Ventura. I always appreciate the immense detail that you put into your posts.

I love the sound of my 960, especially the contrast between
● BASS (L in tone chamber)
● MUSETTE (-M, M, +M),
● M. Vivace (-M, +M).

The M. Vivace is so velvety smooth which is pleasing to my ear on many tunes. I know it would be too much, for forum member, debra. I can't remember what he said on a previous post -- I think he said M.Vivace would make his "teeth rattle"

I won't sell my 960, however as you know, my 8X is my "Go To" accordion for everyday practice/use and when I play out for groups. As I have mentioned before, for me, "Variety is the Spice of Life" and the 8X certainly has it!