FRATELLI C-GRIFF MIII FREEBASS 58 BASS

[AccordionUprising]

Saw this linked in a recent CBA discussion. Anybody played one of these free-bass instruments with large buttons on both sides? Pros and cons? More thoughts below the picture.

https://www.musik-center.de/en/fratelli-c-griff-miii-einzelton-58-bass-uberholt-gebraucht.html/

Wish I could stop by and hear it in person. Wonder what the shipping is to Canada? (Please consider not buying it while I lust after it a bit longer. )

I guess I'm not familiar with the free-bass terminology. Is "MIII" the mirrored C-system bass on top? 

Does it say two treble registers? Curious that it has three switches. Maybe there's options to pick either reed or both? Wonder how they're tuned? Be nice if it was a higher/lower smooth octave tuning. I think I'd prefer that to a big musette.

Wonder what the range on each keyboard is? I've wanted a free-bass with a deep bass range, most I've tried have been rather "thin" on the bass side. 

The large bass buttons sure look odd. Might be nice to have them match the right side like this, or could require you to move your left hand too much. Any thoughts? I suspect it would make it hard to re-sell, since it's unusual.

Again, wish I could try it out. Tempting. I might contact the dealer if I can get my questions in order. Any suggestions of what I should ask about it?

PS. Hi all, haven't been by in a while. Nice to chat again.

 

[dunlustin]

Wish I'd seen this 3 weeks ago!

 

[Sebastian Bravo]

It says 2 choirs in the treble, so i obviously asume it's LM tuned (L, M, and LM registers). The MIII side has only one reed, so it will sound "thin" and i think the first 12 low basses should be octave tuned to avoid reed choking.
The big buttons of the MIII looks really awkward to play in my opinion. I also think it would make fast arpeggios more difficult.
It's a really good looking accordion, I like the grill and the bellows. A good choice for someone who wants to start with the free bass, lightweight version!

 

[AccordionUprising]

Thanks Sebastian!

Still learning, What does MIII indicate? That's new to me.

Funny, I'm up late and wasn't expecting responses at 1 AM. I guess the world is round after all.

I sent a note to the dealer (since they're awake too). I'll let you all know what they say.

 

[losthobos]

I can see the attraction....

 

[Morne]

[video=youtube]

 

[dunlustin]

MIII – I believe M for Manual (as in organ)
MI: RH melody MII: LH Stradella
MIII: LH Melody (aka Free) bass. I don’t think MIII says how the reeds are set out – ie B or C, High to Low or vice versa.
Crosio – solid make in the French heyday. I see it’s C Griff – seems about 4 octaves either side.
The ‘Harmoneon’ was patented by Pierre Monichon around 1950.
2 voice in the RH hand could be LM or MM – if the latter I’d be surprised if it was ‘musette.’
3 switches: probably 2 in the middle, single voice either side
Hard to resell – why would you!
I have often felt that Stradella chords can sound ‘mushy’ and you have no control over the inversion.

 

[AccordionUprising]

MIII – I believe M for Manual (as in organ)
MI: RH melody MII: LH Stradella
MIII: LH Melody (aka Free) bass. I don’t think MIII says how the reeds are set out – ie B or C, High to Low or vice versa.
Crosio – solid make in the French heyday. I see it’s C Griff – seems about 4 octaves either side.
The ‘Harmoneon’ was patented by Pierre Monichon around 1950.
2 voice in the RH hand could be LM or MM – if the latter I’d be surprised if it was ‘musette.’
3 switches: probably 2 in the middle, single voice either side
Hard to resell – why would you!
I have often felt that Stradella chords can sound ‘mushy’ and you have no control over the inversion.

Thanks very much for this. Never heard the MIII usage. 


"Hard to resell – why would you!"   :heart:  !

---

Thank you for the video! Looks like it might be an identical instrument. Very nice to hear how it sounds.

Wish the bass had a deeper sound, I guess stradella counter-basses often have two octave reeds. I'd like something heavy like that I think.

The dealer seems to be saying the one they have has the bass starting low on the bottom, so the reverse of the one in the video. 

:huh: Wonder how tricky it might be to flip the bass blocks over to make it low on the top? I know I've heard of such changes, but guess it would depend on the construction of the individual instrument. (If I was the manufacturer, I'd make that easy to change for customer requests. Note to self if I ever start making accordions.)

More reasons I wish I could try it out.

 

[dunlustin]

For the obsessives:
Pierre Monichon, inventor of the Harmonéon, was a student of accordion history and a lifelong teacher:

his most famous pupil - Alain Abbott - is a musical heavyweight with around 800 pieces for Accordéon de Concert.
Some might say they understand why the Harmoneon did not take off.

 

[AccordionUprising]

Very interesting!
Given the "Harmonéon" name, search turns up more French resources. (Which I'm lamenting my limited understanding of.)

The French Wikipedia article:
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonéon

And a longer history with various inventors and players, and some interesting different designs and images:
http://lharmoneon.over-blog.com/2016/08/l-harmoneon.html

I'm not sure why they've split the "basses pédales" vs. "basses chromatiques" into a twined left hand below? Am I reading it that they're both cba layouts, with the smaller inner "pédales" rows being lower basses? Maybe so you could make chords with extra low notes or something? Just guessing.

They look cheerful enough about it here:

 

[stickista]

For the obsessives:
Pierre Monichon, inventor of the Harmonéon, was a student of accordion history and a lifelong teacher:

his most famous pupil - Alain Abbott - is a musical heavyweight with around 800 pieces for Accordéon de Concert.
Some might say they understand why the Harmoneon did not take off.

Great video of Alain Abbott! What tone on that instrument!
Important to understand that C Harmoneons generally have the low bass note towards the floor. (That the one at the center of this thread seems to be the opposite is really interesting.) There’s nothing inherently bad about that, and in fact it makes a lot of sense. Ive often wondered if I should have gone with that instead of exact mirror of the right. I think elaborate lines (eg Bach) may well be easier that way. I find those kinds of things difficult with Also it mirrors what one has on piano... left pinky low

---

Saw this linked in a recent CBA discussion. Anybody played one of these free-bass instruments with large buttons on both sides? Pros and cons? More thoughts below the picture.

https://www.musik-center.de/en/fratelli-c-griff-miii-einzelton-58-bass-uberholt-gebraucht.html/

Wish I could stop by and hear it in person. Wonder what the shipping is to Canada? (Please consider not buying it while I lust after it a bit longer. )

I guess I'm not familiar with the free-bass terminology. Is "MIII" the mirrored C-system bass on top? 

Does it say two treble registers? Curious that it has three switches. Maybe there's options to pick either reed or both? Wonder how they're tuned? Be nice if it was a higher/lower smooth octave tuning. I think I'd prefer that to a big musette.

Wonder what the range on each keyboard is? I've wanted a free-bass with a deep bass range, most I've tried have been rather "thin" on the bass side. 

The large bass buttons sure look odd. Might be nice to have them match the right side like this, or could require you to move your left hand too much. Any thoughts? I suspect it would make it hard to re-sell, since it's unusual.

Again, wish I could try it out. Tempting. I might contact the dealer if I can get my questions in order. Any suggestions of what I should ask about it?

PS. Hi all, haven't been by in a while. Nice to chat again.

I have large buttons on my Geuns Hybrid Bandoneon and would never want to use tiny buttons. They allow you to do ‘double stops’ quite easily. Better targets.

There seems to be a lot of them available in france...
https://www.leboncoin.fr/recherche/?text=harmoneon

The problem is finding out if they are low note in top or bottom.

 

[AccordionUprising]

Latest update/correction from the dealer is that the instrument has left hand buttons mirroring the right, with bass starting at the top. That makes it seemingly identical to the one in the video:

I think that would be my preference. My brain and hands would process the mirror image shapes better than one metaphorically continuous keyboard (like a piano) from bottom left up and then top right down. It would like to see if the "big buttons" make the free-bass more accessible.

So now I'm pondering if I have enough "birthday funds" in honour of my past week's turning 52. Postage is only €70! (Easier to ignore the expensive part.) If I don't get it, it's great to know the name "harmoneon" so I can keep my eye out.

Still quite intrigued by the two-part six-row keyboard pictured in the post a few up from here. If the short three-rows are extra heavy basses, I'd rather have those then a higher range intended for Bach-like counterpoint.

 

[Dingo40]

Happy birthday, ( for last week) Bruce! 

 

[dunlustin]

I had a 'rummage.'
The odd looking bass layout (photo) comes from another variant and the notes suggested are 'by deduction.'
The Prez family were accordionists who tried a number of non-stradella layouts. These were finally abandoned in favour of the Monichon solution.
The Monichon vdo shows his prototype - clearly the same on both sides - interesting he chose 3 rows - were they still standard in 1948?
I don't know if it was lowest note towards the ground or to the sky. It would be interesting to know the range each side - even with a couple of blanks, 58 is quite a range.
The ads in Leboncoin had a Crosio I tried for but it had gone.

factoid:
In 1940s France the accordion was 'not a musical instrument.' I believe it was only recognised by the Cultural Mandarins for serious study in 1986.

I'm sort of hoping you might buy this Crosio so I get to hear your views. These instruments were meant for serious study but does that mean this is a student instrument?
Would it be worth knowing the reed quality.
Also do you know if it is LM or MM. If MM it could well be demi-swing - not everyone's favourite or even unison - likely to show up any off tuning. Maybe they'd tune to the brio you like as part of the deal?
FWIW I do find the mirror set up a bit cack-handed but having more choice makes it worth the effort.

 

[Jim2010]

LM.

I also enquired about this instrument and this was the reply:

"The two choirs in treble are LM Reeds. 16' and 8'. The Fratelli has 2 chöirs (16`(Low) and 8` (Medium)). First register 8` second 8` 16` (octave tuning) and third 16`.
The treble side has the bass button at the top. The bass side has the bass buttons also on the top. The Bass single tones are C-System. The range is from c lowest tone to f`` highest tone."

 

[AccordionUprising]

It seems from this video (linked below again) that the free-bass and treble side (lower register) on this instrument both play the same range? Is this common for free-bass instruments?

I expected the bass side to be substantially deeper than the treble. Is there a reason to have both sides play the same range?

 

[stickista]

It seems from this video (linked below again) that the free-bass and treble side (lower register) on this instrument both play the same range? Is this common for free-bass instruments?

I expected the bass side to be substantially deeper than the treble. Is there a reason to have both sides play the same range?

The sides are definitely an octave apart. I think what you’re hearing may the RH side played with just the lower reeds and the LH played with its uppers.