Fundamental tuning question

[wirralaccordion]

Am I correct in thinking that when we talk about an accordion being tuned to 440Hz that we are referring only to a single note, i.e. A4 being tuned on a single reed ( usually called "clarinet" )?

 

[petch]

Yes, so everything will be relative to that (A5 will be 880Hz, A4 on the low 'bassoon' register will be A3 220Hz, etc.)

Frequencies of Musical Notes, A4 = 440 Hz

 

[Ikesaccordions]

Assuming Equal Temperament. But in any temperament the octaves should be in tune, except for any stretching. Other than Equal Temperament, the reference note is generally "C" rather than "A".

 

[John Doe]

The C, when A is tuned to 440 -the standard though a seemingly optional standard these days- is tuned to 261.63. That's 130.81/ 523.25 an octave below and an octave above.

Your handy dandy handheld tuner may actually detect two decimal place changes- but neither the display nor your ear is likely to do so... (261.63 vs 261.64...) Most displays are analog in any case.

Tuning to various temperaments is probably a breeze on an electronic accordion shaped object, but when using banks of reeds in the dinosaur accordions that I favor you'll be fully in temperament in a very small number of keys- perhaps one and its minor. And not even that when the music changes keys at various points in the piece.

A real enthusiast would, of course, acquire several parts donors of the same model and individually tune up sets of reed banks to pop in and out for different temperaments. Childs play!

I personally am happy if the needle is pretty close to the middle when I run through a scale.

Henry

 

[Ikesaccordions]

The C, when A is tuned to 440 -the standard though a seemingly optional standard these days- is tuned to 261.63. That's 130.81/ 523.25 an octave below and an octave above.

Your handy dandy handheld tuner may actually detect two decimal place changes- but neither the display nor your ear is likely to do so... (261.63 vs 261.64...) Most displays are analog in any case.

Tuning to various temperaments is probably a breeze on an electronic accordion shaped object, but when using banks of reeds in the dinosaur accordions that I favor you'll be fully in temperament in a very small number of keys- perhaps one and its minor. And not even that when the music changes keys at various points in the piece.

A real enthusiast would, of course, acquire several parts donors of the same model and individually tune up sets of reed banks to pop in and out for different temperaments. Childs play!

I personally am happy if the needle is pretty close to the middle when I run through a scale.

Henry

To each his own. Classical music sounds bettr with classical tuning, to me.
In Equal Temperament everyting but octaves and unisons is equally out of tune.

 

[debra]

To each his own. Classical music sounds bettr with classical tuning, to me.
In Equal Temperament everyting but octaves and unisons is equally out of tune.

"Classical tuning"? There have been many different tuning schemes that try to hide the fundamental error in different places. (The error is that 7 octaves means multiplying the frequency by 128 and 12 quints means multiplying the frequency by about 129,75 but both correspond to the same "key" on the keyboard.) Especially in the renaissance and baroque period lots of different tunings were tried. So there isn't just a "classical tuning" versus "equal temperament" tuning.
All the different tunings (apart from equal temperament) required composers to take tuning into account when writing music: the resulting music could only be performed in the key it was written for. If you transposed a song it could well end up sounding terrible.
I know that everything but octaves is out of tune (and on at least 99% of the accordions in actual use the octaves are also out of tune because the whole instrument is out of tune except for maybe a few days after it was tuned by a good tuner). Every quint is about 2 cents out of tune. But our ears are more or less used to that by now... At least since Pythagoras we know that 2 to the power 7 and 3/2 to the power 12 are a bit different (128 versus about 129,75) so we know there cannot be a solution that makes everything sound "in tune"...

 

[Ventura]

the proposition was put forth that
"....so we know there cannot be a solution that makes everything sound "in tune"..."

but there is !

it goes by different names in different parts of the world, but the effect
is the same (and cumulative)

some call it Guiness, some Jack Daniels, some Johnnie Walker, some Pilsen Urqell,
VB stubbies are known to even out the tuning as well..

 

[John Doe]

I type this a fraught, despondent, and saddened man.

Ventura beat me to it.

"Who ya gonna make happy with that thing?"
"Me."

As I take it there's a continuum of players. On one end there are the professionals who make a living at playing the instrument and for whom the paying listener's pleasure is what counts. Then there are professionals who play both for the listener, and for themselves. There are those who play as a social activity- enjoying the music, the companionship, and the sounds they themselves craft. There are the putzers who merely bellow away for their own amusement and gratification and for whom "Sc*** 'em if they can't take a joke," is a philosophy to play by. I'm one of those. Finally there are those who are simply and overwhelmingly devoted to the pursuit of perfection both in their instrument and in the mastery of it. Some of these support their devotion by making a living at playing the instrument...

The categories are flexible and many have feet in more than one.

 

[Ikesaccordions]

"Classical tuning"? There have been many different tuning schemes that try to hide the fundamental error in different places. (The error is that 7 octaves means multiplying the frequency by 128 and 12 quints means multiplying the frequency by about 129,75 but both correspond to the same "key" on the keyboard.) Especially in the renaissance and baroque period lots of different tunings were tried. So there isn't just a "classical tuning" versus "equal temperament" tuning.
All the different tunings (apart from equal temperament) required composers to take tuning into account when writing music: the resulting music could only be performed in the key it was written for. If you transposed a song it could well end up sounding terrible.
I know that everything but octaves is out of tune (and on at least 99% of the accordions in actual use the octaves are also out of tune because the whole instrument is out of tune except for maybe a few days after it was tuned by a good tuner). Every quint is about 2 cents out of tune. But our ears are more or less used to that by now... At least since Pythagoras we know that 2 to the power 7 and 3/2 to the power 12 are a bit different (128 versus about 129,75) so we know there cannot be a solution that makes everything sound "in tune"...

That idea of the music only being playable in the key it is written for only applies to music written in "Just Intonation". There are many tunings that allow music in any key to be played that are not Equal Tempered. Bach's Das Wolltemperierte Klavier with preludes and fugues in every key can even sound better in those systems. It is doubtful that Bach ever used Equal Temperament.

 

[debra]

the proposition was put forth that
"....so we know there cannot be a solution that makes everything sound "in tune"..."

but there is !

it goes by different names in different parts of the world, but the effect
is the same (and cumulative)

some call it Guiness, some Jack Daniels, some Johnnie Walker, some Pilsen Urqell,
VB stubbies are known to even out the tuning as well..

No, you do not need to get drunk in order to make everything sound "in tune".
There are musical solutions. They go by a few different names like "Amsterdam tuning" or "Scottish tuning".
(Tremolo is a great tool to make everything sound "in tune". I know people who swear their accordion is still perfectly "in tune" after 50 years without any maintenance or tuning done to it.)
These musical solutions do have a small negative side-effect though: they will make you increase your intake of Paracetamol (or other headache medicine) significantly.

 

[debra]

That idea of the music only being playable in the key it is written for only applies to music written in "Just Intonation". There are many tunings that allow music in any key to be played that are not Equal Tempered. Bach's Das Wolltemperierte Klavier with preludes and fugues in every key can even sound better in those systems. It is doubtful that Bach ever used Equal Temperament.

I believe that Werckmeister III was the most popular tuning in Bach's time, so that is likely the tuning Bach took into account when composing music.
I should perhaps add that Werckmeister III deviates less from Equal Temperament than the amount that the majority of accordions are out of tune by, so take your pick whether that means "pretty close" or whether it says something about how far off the majority of accordions are...

 

[Ikesaccordions]

I believe that Werckmeister III was the most popular tuning in Bach's time, so that is likely the tuning Bach took into account when composing music.
I should perhaps add that Werckmeister III deviates less from Equal Temperament than the amount that the majority of accordions are out of tune by, so take your pick whether that means "pretty close" or whether it says something about how far off the majority of accordions are...

Good point. Werckmeister III is further off from E.T. than later Well-Tempered systems in popular use until about the 1850's when E.T. began to take over. In spite of appearances, I was not yet born then, so I'm just going by what I read in Mr. Jorgensen's book, Historical Tunings and Temperaments.
I find later Well-Tempered systems more satisfying than E.T. and more suited to the keys most of my sheet music is in, i.e. using the white keys a lot.
Virtuoso composer-pianists like Liszt, Chopin et al, decided that using keys remote from "C" arouund the Circle of 5ths was technicaly easier for their large hands. As for me, since my hands are average size, and the middle two fingers longer in comparison, I found interpreting the intention of those composers including Beethoven, more difficult than the intentions, based on the scores of some other composers, like Schubert and Mozart.
Not that I am a great pianist. On the contrary, I lacked the necessary discipline.

 

[Tom]

I type this a fraught, despondent, and saddened man.

Ventura beat me to it.

"Who ya gonna make happy with that thing?"
"Me."

As I take it there's a contiuum of players. On one end there are the professionals who make a living at playing tha instrument and for whom the listener's pleasure is what counts. Then there are professionals who play both for the listener, and for themselves. There are those who play as a social activity- enjoying the music, the companionship, and the sounds they themselves craft. There are the putzers who merely bellow away for their own amusement and gratification and for whom "Sc*** 'em if they can't take a joke," is a philosophy to play by. I'm one of those. Finally there are those who are simply and overwhelmingly devoted to the pursuit of perfection both in their instrument and in the mastery of it.

The categories are flexible and many have feet in more than one.

I'm one of the amateur "wannabes." I've busked and played plenty of places but never really "got it" due to lack of motivation, practice and or natural talent I don't know. Anyway, my question here is what is the tuning of the Rolands? And can you change it? Seems pretty ok to me.

 

[debra]

I'm one of the amateur "wannabes." I've busked and played plenty of places but never really "got it" due to lack of motivation, practice and or natural talent I don't know. Anyway, my question here is what is the tuning of the Rolands? And can you change it? Seems pretty ok to me.

Experts can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Roland offers several choices for tuning. The manual should explain it...

 

[Tom]

Experts can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Roland offers several choices for tuning. The manual should explain it...

Ah, right you are as usual Paul!!! Equal Temperament is the default, but you can select from quite a variety. (As usual, one should always look at the dam manual!) Anyway, the way things are going now, I may have to switch to Mean Temperament to match the world.

 

[dunlustin]

For completeness:
FR4X Ref Manual:
Page 31: Apart from Eq Temp there are 9 options ( inc 2 Arabic )
Plus
A User option to write 3 of your own - frequency change in 1 cent intervals.
However I believe none sound like an acoustic accordion.

 

[Ikesaccordions]

"None sound like an acoustic accordion" which gives hope to me, the owner of 240 some-odd acoustic accordions in need of restoration.

 

[Tom]

....and none of those acoustics sound like a Roland either. Just can't win. I love this discussion, it's so perennial! I'd rather listen to JerryPH play his Roland than (fill in the blank) play his or her acoustic. It's the music, not the instrument that makes the world go round.

 

[debra]

Ah, right you are as usual Paul!!! Equal Temperament is the default, but you can select from quite a variety. (As usual, one should always look at the dam manual!) Anyway, the way things are going now, I may have to switch to Mean Temperament to match the world.

If you want to "match the world" you should find the "accordion out of tune" tuning. But I'm afraid the Roland does not offer that.

 

[John Doe]

I'd rather listen to (X) play his Roland than (fill in the blank) play his or her acoustic. It's the music, not the instrument that makes the world go round.

On the other hand there's way, way, way, more to what I find to be good music than tuning and tonal perfection. The emotional response elicited by the "boiling cats" sound of an out of tune instrument in the hands of someone who can play it- "play it" not in the technical sense but in the musical expression sense easily trumps a superbly perfect sound from a sterile device. The choice of notes; alone, in harmony, and in dissonance all are well beyond just "is it in tune". The articulation and flow of those notes as rhythms develop and play off against each other are aspects which are outside of tuning but oh so crucial to music. The sound qualities themself are part of how I hear the music and the "flaws" arouse memorys and associations- unexpressed and perhaps subconscious, but surely part of how one listens, perceives and reacts...*

A beer whilst sitting in a bar/pub surrounded by friends is quite a different thing from that same beer when sitting in a center airline seat bracketed by two regrettably over nourished strangers palpably suffering from overheating.

When making abhorrent noises for my own satisfaction the "I know my basoon Ab is a bit squawky on this one" and "the LH C# column clatters a bit" as I "emote" on the 1929 160 bass behemoth that would cause any other musicians I was hoping to blend in with to give me the expeditious boot, offers a sense of connection with a musical world that I find quite satisfying.

Surely an EWI can play fabulous music in the hands of a fabulous musician- but so can a 1930 Galanti operating in full wheeze mode and going on 90 years since its last tuning (no point in rushing these things).

Quoted it before and am perfectly willing to repeat it, "You can play a shoestring if you're sincere," John Coltrane who on some occasions is not to my taste but who's musical ooomph is pretty close to beyond question.

Henry

* Before someone decides to stop by and egg my house I point out that I am not advocating for out of tune accordions, merely asserting that there's a lot more to consider in assessing the music produced. And of course there's always Buddy DeFranco (clarinet), "It's a sin to play flat." For some the issue of tuning really does merit a holy war!