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Funny how things go...

hais1273

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Several years ago I posted a message about being spoken down to and generally being treated like a halfwit by a couple of band "mates". The support here was really very good.
Following on from my initial expression of frustration there has been a good deal of bad feeling, I came close to selling my instruments and giving up, but why the *&^%$ should I?
Like all of these situations it's quite silly really, clash of personality really, but I'm not prepared to back down and it seems my principle antagonist isn't going to either. Oh well, you can't get on everybody can you and frankly why should I put up with being treated like an idiot? How many times do you have to ask or tell someone not to moan on and on about the same thing, especially when the do the self same thing when it suits them.
In the intervening years there has been a good deal of water under the bridge ,the world we live in has changed somewhat. As a relative novice my playing and musical confidence has improved enormously, mostly thanks to the lockdowns when like many other people I had enormous amounts of time to sit around playing the accordion.

Anyway, a few weeks ago we made one of our now rare visits the local French bal. It was strikingly obvious at how few people there were. The house band were playing and yes my antagonist was still playing, oh well, such is life. As the evening wore on the house band became increasingly more ragged and boring, the tempo gradually diminished, any sense of coherence slid away, and any small feeling of energy evaporated. By the end of their seemingly endless set, the tunes were just about undanceable. I don't want to be negative and I try to be charitable but in all honesty they were awful. Well, at least I thought they were.

It was much at an event last year and at New Year, but this time it was worse.

After playing together in one line up or another for at least 20 years, probably longer and rehearsing for a couple of hours most weeks of the year one would have thought they would be better.

I'm passionate about French and Breton dance and the music it inspires and it saddens enormously me to see and hear the music played with so little care. I'm wondering just how critical I should be? Tactful and constructive, or just plain old honest.


My brain says tactful and constructive but as being reasonable doesn't seem to work but I'm drifting toward plain old honest.

And if anybody thinks, I'm getting above myself, I'd just say, I'm no great shakes as an accordionist, my playing is straightforward and unfussy, I'm prone to nerves and self doubt, I'd just as soon play "second box" and play rhythm and backup, I'm not keen on complicated tunes with too many notes either!
Any thoughts?
 
Honesty is the best policy...
Though it's amazing the amount of people that are incapable of listening..
Perhaps be kind and suggest they get their ears syringed before dropping the bomb....no excuses then 😉
 
In general, I would advise in favour of keeping things as positive as possible.
Unfortunately, if steaming off, or speaking one's mind, there's often just no road back.
In the 1950 movie " Harvey *", the character played by the actor Jimmy Stewart says, "In life, one can be clever or one can be kind: it's better to be kind!"🙂
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_(1950_film)
 
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I'm assuming you went as a spectator rather than a playing member.
My first thoughts were. "Do you mean to criticize them face to face? In that case why criticize them at all"
You have expressed your feelings here and I'm sure we all understand the frustration you feel, but I would think they must themselves know something is wrong when they are not getting the audiences they used to.
They may resent your criticism and reply with a "Well if you can do any better" type of responce.
Least said, soonest mended in my book. "just sayin'"
 
Alas ... sometimes one needs to be cruel to be kind....
However if you're not playing with them then it's not really relevant
I've been put "in my place" plenty of times and generally feel grateful that people have been thoughtful enough to put me on the right track
 
hmmmm....

generally speaking, when you are faced with Musicians who
"phone it in"
on Gigs that bore them.. there really is nothing Words can do
as this is not a matter of skill, it is completely a mental attitude
that is likely systemic in these people. if it were something that
could be "repaired" likely only with the youngest newest member
of the group, who could be impressed upon with differing point of view..

when confronted with musicians who are obviously a joke
MY recourse without exception is to say nothing,
and blow them off the stage with MY performance..

my professionalism only needs to be regarded by the client and
my dedication perhaps noticed and appreciated by the audience
while the competition can step up their game or get laughed off the stage

their choice
 
Yup, you can't change them, only how you view them. As we say, "fuggedaboutit", or, as Alicia Baker chanelling Taylor Swift, "players gonna play, haters gonna hate.....I...shake it off!":

 
The thing about constructive criticism is that it only is really helpful if it can be specific and attack a problem of the performance instead the entire performance. If you really want to address it with them it might work better to give them an out when you bring it up. Maybe ask if they had a problem with their audio/monitors that evening, it just seemed like they weren’t playing as cohesive as usual. This lets them know you saw the issue but without judgment and with a willingness to help them work through it.
 
Several years ago I posted a message about being spoken down to and generally being treated like a halfwit by a couple of band "mates". The support here was really very good.
Following on from my initial expression of frustration there has been a good deal of bad feeling, I came close to selling my instruments and giving up, but why the *&^%$ should I?
Like all of these situations it's quite silly really, clash of personality really, but I'm not prepared to back down and it seems my principle antagonist isn't going to either. Oh well, you can't get on everybody can you and frankly why should I put up with being treated like an idiot? How many times do you have to ask or tell someone not to moan on and on about the same thing, especially when the do the self same thing when it suits them.
In the intervening years there has been a good deal of water under the bridge ,the world we live in has changed somewhat. As a relative novice my playing and musical confidence has improved enormously, mostly thanks to the lockdowns when like many other people I had enormous amounts of time to sit around playing the accordion.

Anyway, a few weeks ago we made one of our now rare visits the local French bal. It was strikingly obvious at how few people there were. The house band were playing and yes my antagonist was still playing, oh well, such is life. As the evening wore on the house band became increasingly more ragged and boring, the tempo gradually diminished, any sense of coherence slid away, and any small feeling of energy evaporated. By the end of their seemingly endless set, the tunes were just about undanceable. I don't want to be negative and I try to be charitable but in all honesty they were awful. Well, at least I thought they were.

It was much at an event last year and at New Year, but this time it was worse.

After playing together in one line up or another for at least 20 years, probably longer and rehearsing for a couple of hours most weeks of the year one would have thought they would be better.

I'm passionate about French and Breton dance and the music it inspires and it saddens enormously me to see and hear the music played with so little care. I'm wondering just how critical I should be? Tactful and constructive, or just plain old honest.


My brain says tactful and constructive but as being reasonable doesn't seem to work but I'm drifting toward plain old honest.

And if anybody thinks, I'm getting above myself, I'd just say, I'm no great shakes as an accordionist, my playing is straightforward and unfussy, I'm prone to nerves and self doubt, I'd just as soon play "second box" and play rhythm and backup, I'm not keen on complicated tunes with too many notes either!
Any thoughts?
Every musical ensemble can have an off day so it's best to just smile, nod your head and not say anything. I know exactly how you feel because I've played with difficult band mates and it doesn't give you a pleasant experience but you can say more by giving a better performance of your own! There's no sense in feeding an old grudge because they may not even remember how they treated you so your criticism may not make the point that you might want to make.
 
I had a similar experience in the one and only local accordion club. If it was not provincial French or Italian songs, they did not want to hear it, and they preferred to listen to Country music that was butchered and translated to French for their tribute to Octoberfest, so I did not say anything... I spoke loudest with my absence and have not been back since.
 
Alas ... sometimes one needs to be cruel to be kind....
one does.

a particular issue found with the accordion

is that its viewed by players as a one band and also noise whereby a few lessons means you think you are ready to play in public
which is pretty unique to our world

MY view is that we need to look to the standards of other instruments and study hard before throwing our wares on an unsuspecting public
it does no favours to player or instrument
and reinforces it as a garden shed sound

our choice
 
one does.

a particular issue found with the accordion

is that its viewed by players as a one band and also noise whereby a few lessons means you think you are ready to play in public
which is pretty unique to our world

MY view is that we need to look to the standards of other instruments and study hard before throwing our wares on an unsuspecting public
it does no favours to player or instrument
and reinforces it as a garden shed sound

our choice
This is so important....we are ambassadors of an ancient art that needs reviving....knocking out shoddy versions of Roll out the Barrel and Lady of Spain are not going to endear us with the public...just hammering another nail into an already jaded and comic coffin...
Our duty is to up the game and play good arrangements (and that does not have to mean 'complex') with the correct emotion....and to do so we need to listen to the advice and reaction of other musicians who do not play accordion...
Our own delusions of grandeur could destroy what credibility is left in the accordion..
Be humble, know when to shut up and listen, the do some practice to tidy up the performance...
🙏
 
I try to combine always being honest with only giving positive or at least constructive comments/criticism/feedback.
So when I have no positive or constructive feedback to give to someone demonstrating their skills or progress, I just say nothing.
And as I am often quite busy (with accordions or accordion music) when I say nothing people don't know whether it is because I'm too busy or whether it is because I have nothing positive to say. Negative comments have a tendency to come back to you whereas silence rarely does.
 
Negative comments have a tendency to come back to you whereas silence rarely does.
Tiny observation...
If a person is silent on a matter, it is (at least in my opinion) better not to clarify in writing or verbally the reasons why they typically remain silent. To remain silent and then explain your silence is, in effect, to be quite clear on your thoughts. This can be as hurtful as "telling them to their face". Be honest and tactful if possible... or don't explain your silence...

My two cents.
 
I'm wondering just how critical I should be?

I'm not so sure that's the right question to be asking. I'd go with "Should I express my critical opinion to them in the first place?"

And generally the only reason to answer "yes" to that question is when someone asks you for your critical opinion. If they haven't, then what's the point? What possible benefit do you or anyone else have from you telling them anything? They are outside your sphere of influence, and so should ideally be outside your sphere of concern.

There are going to be bands that you don't think are as good as they should be. They exist all over the world. You just saw one. Such is life.

Anyway, to paraphrase French filmaker Jean-Luc Godard (supposedly), the best way to critique a dance band is to form your own dance band. :)
 
This is so important....we are ambassadors of an ancient art that needs reviving....knocking out shoddy versions of Roll out the Barrel and Lady of Spain are not going to endear us with the public...just hammering another nail into an already jaded and comic coffin...
I think a poor performance has way less of an impact on damaging the instrument than discouraging would be players by non constructive feedback and lack of tact when trying to provide constructive feedback.

I remember a beginner posting a video soliciting feedback a while back and the feedback from this forum was pretty harsh pointing out every single deficiency in his playing. While he asked for that feedback, I wouldn’t be surprised if he quit playing after that. I’m sure that has had a detrimental affect on any other beginning students from seeking help.

My opinion is that if you feel the need to point out a problem in somebody’s playing it’s best to keep it limited to one or two elements at a time and have a viable approach or practice tips for them to improve.
 
Tiny observation...
If a person is silent on a matter, it is (at least in my opinion) better not to clarify in writing or verbally the reasons why they typically remain silent. To remain silent and then explain your silence is, in effect, to be quite clear on your thoughts. This can be as hurtful as "telling them to their face". Be honest and tactful if possible... or don't explain your silence...

My two cents.
OK. Let me just say that I do try to give constructive criticism. I refrain from dishonest positive comments which I have seen many people do both in real life and online. My opinion is: when something is rubbish, don't say it's very good. I try to point people in the right direction, but when something is so bad that I cannot even do that I will just shut up. And when I'm too busy to comment I also just shut up. People expect likes (or dislikes) all the time in the online world. I sometimes just enjoy what I read or listen too and go on to the next. I cannot always be bothered by commenting or entering likes/dislikes on everything. Expectations are too high. I am one of the admins of an accordion repair facebook group and I hate it when Facebook tells me there is a post that has no comments yet, so would I (please) add a comment. No, if I have nothing to say I have nothing to say, and if nobody has anything to say about a post, we just leave it at that.
I am intrinsically honest and when I comment I give my opinion. Some people just give encouragement, not a comment based on content... I have seen this here is music education as well. If you tell a rubbish student often enough that what they play is really good, and getting better all the time, you're not helping. You're just feeding an illusion... Sorry, but I don't play that game, and some people do hate me for that. Alas, so be it.
 
When I was a kid, my parents wanted me to learn to play a musical instrument, though there was never any expectations or requirement of becoming advanced at it. It was more about having a life skill and a source of enjoyment, something linked to the tradition and cultural of my folk that could be carried on. Accordion wasn't about precise music or impressing people.

I sometimes think people can become too obsessed with being good at something. When critical analysis or dismissal of a performance becomes more important that the feelings of the person sharing music, then it is sad reflection upon us. However, we live in a world where candid opinion seems to matter more than kindness. Surely there is a balance to be struck.

I have shared a few things here on the fairly rare occasion, but only because they were unusual pieces using a newly acquired free bass accordion. I have not shared what I normally play, which is traditional Scottish music on a Stradella bass accordion. I'm quite aware of many people's feelings towards this style and the musette sound from the often humorous comments I read. However, maybe I will start to share some of my traditional music anyway - we shouldn't let negative opinion impact on creativity, whether it's good, bad or indifferent.​
 
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