Help me choose an accordion please!

[33]

I have tried to research accordions myself but compared to the guitar it seems they are so complex and various..

In summary I am looking for an accordion that can play all the 12 chords in major and minor along with the octave of 12 notes on the other side to play the vocal melodies over the chords, that is in it's simplest form all I need and I would like something smaller/minimalist to achieve this.

My goal is to play all the MODERN pop songs, and I like the style of of button accordions, perhaps a chromatic button accordion would suit me?

 

[Ganza]

Can you please expand on what exactly you mean by "MODERN pop songs"?

Are we talking modern as in: Beyoncé, Britney, Lada Gaga
or modern as in: Beach Boys, The Eagles, The Beatles etc?

And are we talking about songs from English speaking countries or elsewhere?

 

[33]

Can you please expand on what exactly you mean by MODERN pop songs?

Are we talking modern as in: Beyoncé, Britney, Lada Gaga
or modern as in: Beach Boys, The Eagles, The Beatles etc?

And are we talking about songs from English speaking countries or elsewhere?

Hello! yes indeed, by modern I mean Gaga for sure, I also will play traditional accordion music so dont worry, upon further research of the Stradella bass system I believe that the 60 bass design is the minimum amount of buttons that plays all the 12 chords in both major and minor, so I probably have answered my own question here..

 

[george garside]

i would suggest you do two things!

- if possible go to a large accordion dealer and try various sizes etc and ask advice as to which would best suite your needs.

- tell us where you are, not detailed address, but country, town or something on those lines as there may well be relatively local to you members of this forum who could offer help and/or advice

george

 

[TomBR]

Hi 33,
Sounds like a good idea!

It looks like youve already worked out that you need something with at least 12 buttons in each column on the left hand. That gives you all the chords.
How many columns is up to you. The minimum would be 36, 3x12 but there are very few accordions like that around, and most are very old and tired. That would give you bass note and major and minor chords.

The two columns nearest the bellows are often counter bass and bass notes. The counter bass is the middle note of the major chord. When youre just starting out it may not be obvious that you want the counter bass column, but its actually really useful.

A 60 bass would be fine, a 72 bass would give you the diminished chord column as well, and is a very popular size.

When you have more than 12 buttons in a column, ie 16 in a 96 bass or 20 in a 120 bass it just means that some rows are repeated so that you dont have to jump from one end of the basses to the other for some chord changes - they loop around

Theres a perpetual big debate on this forum between piano accordion PA and chromatic button accordion CBA.
You can read the discussions and some people may want to say it all again!

Heres one
http://www.accordionists.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=494[/url]

Comments about the debate
- CBA supporters will often be more vocal in supporting their choice.
- Instrument availability and pricing varies from country to country.
- If you choose CBA you also have to choose C system or B system, that also varies from country to country

Good luck! I think youll have a lot of fun.
Tom

 

[debra]

Hi 33,
Sounds like a good idea!

It looks like youve already worked out that you need something with at least 12 buttons in each column on the left hand. That gives you all the chords.
How many columns is up to you. The minimum would be 36, 3x12 but there are very few accordions like that around, and most are very old and tired. That would give you bass note and major and minor chords.

The two columns nearest the bellows are often counter bass and bass notes. The counter bass is the middle note of the major chord. When youre just starting out it may not be obvious that you want the counter bass column, but its actually really useful.

A 60 bass would be fine, a 72 bass would give you the diminished chord column as well, and is a very popular size.

When you have more than 12 buttons in a column, ie 16 in a 96 bass or 20 in a 120 bass it just means that some rows are repeated so that you dont have to jump from one end of the basses to the other for some chord changes - they loop around...
Tom

The loop around property is actually very useful. You will normally often use not the counter bass but the quint, which is one button up. When you play the top row that quint would be on the bottom row. Almost impossible to get to quickly enough. So with a bit of extra, like 16 rows in a 96 bass accordion (or 80 bass without diminished chords) you have that. This may explain why 96 bass is quite popular.

As for CBA versus PA, it all requires study. If you have no experience it will take a lot of effort before you will be able to play all modern pop songs. The accordion is not an easy instrument to learn. Dont expect to start from scratch and be fluent in 6 months time!

 

[Soulsaver]

The accordion is not an easy instrument to learn. Dont expect to start from scratch and be fluent in 6 months time!

Unlike me, who started and was still effluent after 6 months... :lol:

 

[george garside]

The accordion is not an easy instrument to learn. Dont expect to start from scratch and be fluent in 6 months time!

Unlike me, who started and was still effluent after 6 months... :lol:[/quote]

We can of course presume that effluent is a rarely used opposite to fluent or is it to be interpreted as a polite version of SHoneT!

george :lol:

 

[donn]

My goal is to play all the MODERN pop songs

You would know more about this than I - I gather you play guitar? Do these songs call for only major & minor chords, on guitar? This seems like a change from popular music of the past.

The explanations above, about bass buttons and rows, likely arent clear at all to someone who hasnt learned anything about the Stradella system, but I hope you will take it on faith that theyre talking about something important.

and I like the style of of button accordions, perhaps a chromatic button accordion would suit me?

Youve put your finger on something that the learned commentary missed. Its about style, more than anything else. There are some points in favor of it, and against it in favor of the piano keyboard, but I dont think many of us have been greatly influenced by those points. Be aware though that you will pay a price, in money, to join the styling ranks of chromatic button players.

 

[Anyanka]

Hi & welcome, 33! Are you looking to buy a new instrument, or do you want to dip a toe in the water by starting with a second-hand box? That, combined with your location, will make a lot of difference to availability: in the UK, second-hand chromatic button accordions are comparatively difficult to get, while piano accordions are plentiful.
Ideally, try out different accordions in a shop, or borrow if you can.

Other than that, I'd say: go for a CBA. The fact that you are attracted to that system probably means that it'll suit you. As a guitar player, you are already used to working in patterns, which is what you do on the buttons.

 

[33]

Thanks to everyone for your large and informative response! I personally like to get things done myself however upon further research it seems you all gave me the key information concerning things such as the "looping bass notes" and B or C type buttons, upon considering the various elements I feel fairly comfortable with the idea of a 72 bass, chromatic button accordion.

I thought about the 96 bass however my love for minimalism spoke out, besides that, I am used to executing fast and precise solo's sliding from the open position to the 12th fret soloing position of my guitar, yes I play rock and blues guitar however I am looking for a less materialistic and refined classical instrument because since I have developed as a player I have realized that the power of music is held within the notes more so than the sound of overdrive, I began playing overdriven chords and have progressed all the way to complex finger style with a cleaner tone, I then realized I can play these notes on any instrument, the accordion has an exciting sound to me, I live in Brisbane, Australia by the way everyone.

So to be honest I probably know enough about the basics to go do my own thing but since you are all here and this thread is a success I am left with some more simple questions..

- B or C type buttons? from what I can see it really does not matter, but I will choose a side be it even for a minimal advantage if one exists.

- What are some common European brands or models I should look into considering the 72 bass CBA conclusion.


Thanks again all. {}

EDIT: Maybe a Chinese manufactured model would be more suitable, 72 CBA or 60 CBA whichever

 

[donn]

Pardon me if youve already picked up on this, a 72 bass setup limits the keys you can play easily. Ive never played one myself, but it looks to me like the sharpest key that supports all chords from I to VII is G. If you want to play a tune in E, for example, you can find the IV (A) V (B) and II (F#m) chords in their normal place, but VI and III are on the other end of the keyboard.

Stradella bass system

That may not be a big sacrifice, I dont know, but the extra buttons on the full 120 just connect to the same reeds (i.e., there are no extra reeds required.) If fortune puts a desirable 120 bass accordion in front of you, there isnt any harm in it, is what Im saying.

As for C vs B -- B is probably going to be a little less costly, since no one wants them. Heh heh heh. Its mostly a national thing - do you feel more like a German or Eastern European, or more comfortable with the French and Italians? Norwegian, Finnish or Swedish?

 

[33]

Pardon me if youve already picked up on this, a 72 bass setup limits the keys you can play easily. Ive never played one myself, but it looks to me like the sharpest key that supports all chords from I to VII is G. If you want to play a tune in E, for example, you can find the IV (A) V (B) and II (F#m) chords in their normal place, but VI and III are on the other end of the keyboard.

Stradella bass system

That may not be a big sacrifice, I dont know, but the extra buttons on the full 120 just connect to the same reeds (i.e., there are no extra reeds required.) If fortune puts a desirable 120 bass accordion in front of you, there isnt any harm in it, is what Im saying.

As for C vs B -- B is probably going to be a little less costly, since no one wants them. Heh heh heh. Its mostly a national thing - do you feel more like a German or Eastern European, or more comfortable with the French and Italians? Norwegian, Finnish or Swedish?

Nothing is in stone I suppose and I totally hear what your saying, the 120 bass would definitely be good for economy of motion, I remember the effort I used to put in when I first starting playing guitar, nowadays I shred effortlessly thanks to economy of motion! and I have witnessed an accordion shredder or two via youtube also.

Heh! I thought the C type would be nice all because the pattern of the buttons is aligned with the stradella bass buttons haha! but in all honestly is there really an Eastern European vs Western European button tradition/stereotype that exists? because in all honestly I suppose I could say I am partial to France... but what time era are we in here because when I think of a Parisian accordionist I see keys to be honest! who knows why, probably some French movie haha.

Edit: I will go check out some accordions in person sometime soonish

 

[donn]

Yes, you can expect C griff in France, Italy, Portugal; B griff in Germany, Russia and points between. if I remember right, C in Sweden and Finland, B in Norway. Finland may have a national setup that's different in some respects from standard, but I don't remember the details. France and Portugal sometimes have 4 rows, where everywhere else it will be 3 or 5, and they also sometimes have a different Stradella system on 120 bass accordions, similar to the Italian standard but minus the diminished row and plus a bass row, and there are a couple variations in the exact details. They also commonly won't fit in a normal accordion case. Belgian accordions are another long story I don't know much about.

Piano accordions, mostly same everywhere.

 

[george garside]

If learning the continental from scratch it makes absolutely no difference whether you go for B or C system, it is trying to convert from one to t'other that is on the difficult side!

personally I prefer C system because that is the one I can play and for no other reason. As has already been mentioned B system boxes tend to be relative bargains in the UK because in the main UK plays C system.

It is important to remember that the choice of box is much more complicated than deciding on B or C system. You then have to take into account all the other factors that are important in choosing a box in exactly the same way as does a piano box player but without the same range of choice

george

 

[debra]

... Finland may have a national setup thats different in some respects from standard, but I dont remember the details. ...Belgian accordions are another long story I dont know much about...

The Finnish system has the direction of C-griff but the C on the third row. In Belgium people play C-griff, B-griff (C on the third row) or Do 2 which is B-griff direction but with C on the second row. That is, unless Im mistaken. There are just so many systems.
The Belgian bass system has a rectangular layout rather than slanted rows, and is also upside down (F above C in the playing direction instead of below C). And then there are accordions with three rows of base note: base, major third, minor third and accordions with only two rows of base note: base, major third. And there are instruments with 3 rows of chords (major, minor, seven) and with 4 rows of chords (major, minor, seven, diminished) and highly exceptional with 4 rows as major, minor, seven, and a chord with sharp fifth, like C-E-G#. So on the bass side full-size accordions have either 5 rows, 6 rows (most common) or 7 rows. (Not counting melodic bass with 3 additional rows.)
There are just sooooo many different systems!

 

[33]

... Finland may have a national setup thats different in some respects from standard, but I dont remember the details. ...Belgian accordions are another long story I dont know much about...

The Finnish system has the direction of C-griff but the C on the third row. In Belgium people play C-griff, B-griff (C on the third row) or Do 2 which is B-griff direction but with C on the second row. That is, unless Im mistaken. There are just so many systems.
The Belgian bass system has a rectangular layout rather than slanted rows, and is also upside down (F above C in the playing direction instead of below C). And then there are accordions with three rows of base note: base, major third, minor third and accordions with only two rows of base note: base, major third. And there are instruments with 3 rows of chords (major, minor, seven) and with 4 rows of chords (major, minor, seven, diminished) and highly exceptional with 4 rows as major, minor, seven, and a chord with sharp fifth, like C-E-G#. So on the bass side full-size accordions have either 5 rows, 6 rows (most common) or 7 rows. (Not counting melodic bass with 3 additional rows.)
There are just sooooo many different systems![/quote]


Yeah for sure, I feel pretty familiar with the stadella bass chromatic accordions and have a question about diatonic accordions.. I have seen a treble side note chart entitled the 33 club bass? that possesses all the 12 notes within a chromatic octave, would this make it possible to play chromatically on a diatonic accordion, even if it meant in only a single key?

I dont want to confuse anyone there so just bear with me in what I typed, there may be an error somewhere.

 

[Ganza]

Personally, I would stay away from uncommon (defunct?) systems like "Club"....

C-system tutor books are available everywhere in France, and not that hard to find online.... My set of 4 tutor books by Andre Astier and Joss Basseli is fantastic!

I have a teacher but as he only plays PA we were all at sea around the fingerings, until I got my hands on those 4 tutor books!!!!!!!

 

[Morne]

To touch on what Ganza mentioned regarding tuition. Your choice between B- and C-system might be influenced by whether you plan on getting a teacher and/or self study books. Where the B-system is less popular you will also find far fewer teachers.

There is a lot of B-system material available in Russian but practically nothing in English. These self study books usually contain fingering guides. I have seen some older German self study books for the B-system, but I do not know if they also provide fingering (the older German PA books I have do not). Depending on whether you're familiar with either language or if you're willing to translate, this might severely limit your available material. Of course, if you're well versed in music notation you could probably jump around in those books and follow the suggested fingering without bothering with the text. The idea is to get used to how a B-system is usually fingered so that when you play your own music your fingers might have a better idea of where to go.

 

[dunlustin]

diatonic = at least as many options as the CBA.
The Club has morphed into a 3 row found quite a lot these days - 12 -18 basses
eg
Try melodeon.net for lots more push/pull info.
Also Bernard Loffet and Marc Serafini are current makers
ps There is also the British Chromatic or B/C/C# whose virtues are (mostly) sung in Scotland but see: