Hohner Bravo II 48 vs Roland FR-1X

[Newaccordionist]

Hello everyone

I'd like to learn to play the accordion and I wasn't sure if I would like the instrument so I bought a cheap new €500 accordion. I immediately fell in love with the accordion but some keys weren't working so I ended up sending it back. €500 IS very low for an accordion so the low quality was of course to be expected...

But hey... at least now I know I love the accordion and now I feel a bit more comfortable with shelling out a bit more money.

I initially thought the Roland FR-1x looked pretty awesome but then I read some reviews and read bad things, such as the buttons feeling very cheap, bellows not feeling great, the bass strap breaking, some people feeling bad about their decision to buy it etc. etc.

Then I started looking for a regular acoustic accordion and stumbled upon the Hohner Bravo II 48. I read many good reviews about that one.

So judging by the reviews, the Hohner would be the better deal. But then there are some things that I can't help but find super awesome on the FR-1x, such as being able to play with headphones on, the ability to add custom instruments, the ability to play backing tracks through the speakers using a USB stick, no need for turning in the instrument at a shop to get it tuned unlike acoustic accordions.

So if it weren't for those bad reviews, I would go for the Roland in a heartbeat..... :/

So I'm turning to this forum with the questions: Which one of these 2 would be the better of the 2 for a beginner? Does the FR-1x generally have a lot of problems like the reviews make it seem? What can one expect as for the total lifespan of the accordion, will it easily last a decade? For an acoustic, from what I've read it's easy to last multiple decades (with minor fixes and care throughout the years of course), but what about the FR-1x? I'd like a €1,600 instrument to last at least 10 years. To me that's an insane amount of money (even though I know there are accordions that cost like 3 or 4 times as much, those are completely out of my league)

Also, what kind of batteries does the FR-1x take? A battery won't last a decade so I'm wondering if it easy to find new replacement batteries or are these specifically made for this accordion and thus only available until they're no longer produced?

As you've probably already noticed, in the end longevity, durability and reliability will always decide whether it's a deal or not for me. So if the Hohner is that much more reliable, I'll still get that one.

P.S. if you know of any other good accordions that are even better than the 2 I have in mind, feel free to suggest them as well!! I'm looking to spend a maximum of €1,600.

Thanks a lot for any answers!!

 

[Geronimo]

My basic recommendation would be not to spend €1600 at the outset. The problem with buying new instruments is that they drop steeply in value, and your first instrument of Bravo II 48 or FR-1X size and quality is comparatively unlikely to stay with you for a long time.

For me, an accordion is a set of compromises. You have quite a few disadvantages in sound quality and versatility in return for a portable instrument with a few rather distinctive advantages. The Roland is an electronic controller and sound modeller that is quite more versatile than a single acoustic accordion but does not really reach the potential of an actual good acoustic instrument. While Roland invests a whole lot of work into the accordion sounds and behavior of their V-accordion line, swerving from accordion sounds (and using orchestral/organ/percussion sounds) opens a whole lot of possibilities.

Now a Bravo II 48 is quite a bit away from being top-of-the-line, and additionally its small size will severely limit your ability to play along with arbitrary stuff. Even the 72 basses of a Roland FR-1x will become awkward for a number of pieces located close to the edge(s) of the bass board.

So my own recommendation would be to look for a somewhat larger used instrument (80 basses or so). The Rolands really play differently from an acoustic accordion but make excellent sense in band settings. As a fan of the acoustic instrument, I'd not recommend making digital accordions your sole game but rather view them as adding separate value and utility to your accordion playing skills.

 

[george garside]

There are probably as many answers to this question as there are members of this forum - and all will be ''correct'' in their own way!!

My thoughts , not necessarily ''correct'' are to start off with an acoustic accordion and once you are reasonably proficient maybe get an electric one as well or maybe not.

as to the hohner Brava I consider it to be an excellent small box

As to size ( measured by number of bass buttons) choice depends on what sort of music you are aiming for and where and with whom you intend to play eg do you want to get the hang of playing folk/trad/jolly tunes maybe by ear, maybe from the dots or do you want to embark on a long drawn out ( several years) of progressing through a series of exams and grades.
If its folk trad a 48 bass bravo would be fine. If its exams and grades 120 bass is more or less the norm.

Another factor is your physical health and age. Large accordions acoustic or electric are heavy small ones aare much lighter! don't buy one that is going to be uncomfortable to 'wear' you will not use/practice it enough to get the hang of it properly. Also the older someone is the less time they have to arse about learning and the folk/traad route may be the best way in.

Storage space can also be a problem for some and needs to be considered.

weight can also be a problem for transporting to teachers premises or whatever and needs to be considered

Overall and not knowing anything about an individual I would recommend a small acoustic box of reasonable quality for starters such as the amica.

george

 

[debra]

A new Hohner Bravo should simply work and if something isn't quite right it should be repaired under warranty. It should be a good beginner instrument and when well kept it should still be a good instrument you can sell on 10 years from now. You cannot expect that at all from a V-accordion. That's the major downside of digital accordions: they become obsolete by the introduction of new models whereas acoustic accordions become old but not necessarily outdated. An acoustic accordion of today (certainly the lower-end models) is technically virtually identical to one from 30 years ago.
For learning to play the FR-1X is also not a good idea because you will outgrow it and want to replace it by a larger accordion relatively soon, and then the problem of it being outdated will hit you much more than with the Bravo.

 

[dunlustin]

I think I’ve had my FR1XB about 5 years. It uses AA batteries. I alternate 2 sets of 8 and replaced these about a year ago.
It is not an acoustic accordion.
You should find a used FR1XB for around less than1000 euros.
Depending on your musical interests you are likely to find a 48 Bass instrument limiting quite quickly, whereas a 72 bass ‘box’ may well never prove limiting.
That said you will find a used larger instrument for less than 1600 euros – even a FR3XB
With a button instrument (accordéon chromatique) you will need to decide on the system you want to learn – the Roland has the most popular available at the touch of a switch.
I also play acoustic ( and English Concertina) – I play the acoustic less often. I love the sound but with the Roland I can pick it up when I like, make as much noise as I want and disturb nobody. This is a particular benefit to a learner unless you live alone in a cave!
The bass strap problem has not been an issue for years. The bellows is a personal issue – and I do not find it a problem. And cheap buttons?...weeell!
If you choose a Roland it’s probably a good idea to check you have a competent dealer fairly close. (I think the main ‘hub’ for V-accordions was somewhere in Belgium.) I’ve had no problems but it’s as well to be prepared.
If you want to check you like the sound(s) of the Roland there is plenty to listen to on YTube.
If my FR1XB died tomorrow it would have cost me less than 6 euros a week – about 2 swims a week at the local pool – and I’d probably trade up to a 4X.
I am not sure that made-in-China Hohners have much of a reputation?

 

[Geronimo]

I am not sure that made-in-China Hohners have much of a reputation?

From what I heard, they deliver reasonable value for the buck nowadays concerning new instruments. The price of manual labour went up a whole lot in countries like Germany and many manufacturers (not limited to musical instruments) are outsourcing, often with initial quality problems.

New instruments made in Italy or similar just dont make a lot of sense for beginner instruments because of the price point: you can then just start with better materials and get considerably better results at a moderate increase in pricing.

Several decades ago there were more possibilities for getting better instruments by investing more work (the extreme being bayan reeds filed and hammered into shape individually) rather than starting with better premanufactured material.

One problem todays manufacturers face is competition from used instruments built at a time of considerably cheaper labor. The balance between producers and consumers of music is shifting because of recording and reproduction industries and a moving culture and thus the market offers quite a few instruments at low prices. The old low range is not likely worth investing a lot of work or money into restoring (but makes for nice personal projects) but the upper midrange, assuming reasonable state, and upwards is still well worth looking at.

Established brands often ride a thin line between catering to competitive pressure with outsourcing while at the same time trying to uphold some traits and reputation traditionally associated with the brand but harder to maintain without a company culture rooted in local manufacture.

Made-in-china Hohners certainly have a better reputation than made-in-china Goldencups. I think that Parrots (the go-to Chinese laughing stock some decades ago) have actually improved to the degree where their price point starts making for a defensible choice as well.

The used instrument market would likely drag down more current production business if restoring aged instruments to good working order were a less labor intensive process.

 

[debra]

I think I’ve had my FR1XB about 5 years. It uses AA batteries. I alternate 2 sets of 8 and replaced these about a year ago.
It is not an acoustic accordion.
You should find a used FR1XB for around less than1000 euros.
...

The long-term usability of an FR-1X and an FR-1XB is very different. The FR-1X has only 26 treble keys and that is very limiting. The FR-1XB on the other hand has 37 buttons on the first three rows, i.e. it has 37 notes, which is the same as a normal 96-bass PA and is quite usable. A beginner can get quite far with an FR-1XB before finding the keyboard range limiting but with an FR-1X not so much...

 

[Geronimo]

I think I’ve had my FR1XB about 5 years. It uses AA batteries. I alternate 2 sets of 8 and replaced these about a year ago.
It is not an acoustic accordion.
You should find a used FR1XB for around less than1000 euros.
...

The long-term usability of an FR-1X and an FR-1XB is very different. The FR-1X has only 26 treble keys and that is very limiting. The FR-1XB on the other hand has 37 buttons on the first three rows, i.e. it has 37 notes, which is the same as a normal 96-bass PA and is quite usable. A beginner can get quite far with an FR-1XB before finding the keyboard range limiting but with an FR-1X not so much...

Funnily, the FR-1 (with or without X or B) does not suffer from a major durability problem of several larger models: namely the display dying. The FR-1 and FR-1b dont even have a display, and the FR-1X variants have a small segmented LED display that will probably live longer than the rest of the instrument and is easily replaceable anyway.

Either way, this is one aspect of a larger problem: if a highly integrated electronic instrument dies on you, this is usually permanent. The lifetime of good accordions easily runs into several decades (my main instrument is from 1960). Digital electronics are usually less durable (EEPROMS and similar commonly used elements are specified for 10-20 years of data retention at most and a limited number of cycles as well). Even without explicit failure, they are often succeeded by newer versions significantly reducing the resale value of previous models. And it takes a whole lot of time until they become retro chic, and if their storage elements give out before that time, you basically have a piece of brick.

Of course, if you have paid less over that time than for the maintenance of an acoustic instrument, you still come out ahead.

 

[Glenn]

My advice us don’t buy a new accordion at the outset. A decent used one will be more complete and if you buy well, you can sell it on again at the price you bought it if you want to upgrade.

 

[Dingo40]

Hi newaccordionist!
My thoughts on the matter are as follows:
48 bass, very limiting: you would need 80 bass at least even for “folk” music.
120 bass is a complete set, but many fear the size of a 120 bass instrument.
If you are of small stature, a 120 bass 17 inch keyboard could tick all the boxes, as it’s approximately the size of a “large” 80 bass, but has all the buttons most people will ever need!
Secondly, go to an established dealer who does his own repairs. Select, or ask him to find you, an Italian made instrument from the 40’s, 50’s, or 60’s,
in good used condition (many have had very little actual use), 120 bass (17 or 19 inch keyboard to suit you, or an 80 bass, if you must)in a colour and tuning (wet, dry, medium) of your choice, with three treble sets of reeds (LMM or LMH), no couplers in the bass side and only two ( high and low) in the treble side ( it’s all you need, and less confusing!). Do not select one with a side (or “palm” coupler, as these can become a nuisance by getting in the way, as can bass couplers, being prone to unintended operation). Pick rounded metal bellows corners, bellows with twelve or more deep pleats.
If available, take one where the back of the treble keyboard does not have some kind of access cover attached to it.
An accordion, as specified above, will generally be affordable, well made of good quality materials, by masters of their trade, durable and easily repaired If needed; light to play with plenty of volume and enjoyable to use!
You should have money left over from your budget to put it into tip-top condition (if required).
Make sure it comes with good straps and a suitable carrying case in good condition!
This could be all you’ll ever actually need!<EMOJI seq="1f642">?</EMOJI><EMOJI seq="1f44d">?</EMOJI>

 

[Dingo40]

Of course, if you prefer, there’s an FR-x1, and an FR- x1b for sale in the market thread, but note the reasons for selling (and after such little actual use
!)<EMOJI seq="1f615">?</EMOJI>

 

[Jiri]

@newaccordionist:
Hello,
in case to have just one instrument, I probably select acoustics one. There is no need of electricity (or batteries) and I like accordion for it's nature sound (without need of different instruments sound). It is always ready to play and durable. The size and number of bass buttons really depends on what you like to play, as said before ... .

I have more accordions and honestly I have to say, that also one Roland (FR2 - PA, 96bass, no speakers). I use it just for evening learning with headphones (the reason was clear - the time for learning I have just at evening, where are children in the bed and I can not use acoustics accordion).

But, in case to select just one accordion from my set, it will be acoustics, for sure.

I wish you good choice!
Jiri

 

[Geronimo]

@newaccordionist:
Hello,
in case to have just one instrument, I probably select acoustics one. There is no need of electricity (or batteries) and I like accordion for its nature sound (without need of different instruments sound).

What I like about the Roland I have: it is easy to make recordings (some models with USB slot will even be able to record directly to digital without going through D/A conversion at all, so youll not even need a soundcard: Ive seen this in the FR-7x manual but not the FR-1x manual). I have the FR-1b without builtin speakers, a mixed blessing of course but it also makes it the lightest model of all. Its size is ok for note entry and a bit of play, but 72 buttons is severely limiting both for standard bass as well as free bass play.

For this early model, bellows response/sensitivity sucks, regardless of the settings you use. I dont even think its the sensor (though it could differentiate low pressures better) but what the accordion does with the information. The sound expansion just doesnt respond the way an acoustic does. This is supposed to be improved on the x series but from what Ive heard the difference is not all that striking. What also sucks is the inability to control articulation both left and right by throttling air to individual buttons/voices rather than using the bellows for everything (which isnt possible when having legato lines somewhere). This is basically an issue when working with accordion sounds exclusively rather than reverting to some orchestral sounds (which tend to come prearticulated and differentiate the sound on their own well enough).

Excuses to everyone for peddling the same videos so often, but this playlist) shows pretty well what I am talking about: while I am also juggling with the distance to the microphone, the registration works for acoustic renditions as well: when the bass is registered more fully, it tends to be more plucked (via gradual release of the button), in the weaker passages (like the beginning of the Rosa Turbinata part) it tends to be stronger. Since it is played against a single reed in the treble several times, it is registered quite low in order not to mask the treble voices: you really need some stereo or other reasonable sound system better than laptop speakers to get a good impression. When there is a single reed in the treble, passages tend to be mp (the bass side has stronger dynamics than the treble particularly in L registration so it leaves more breathing room at those volumes) and articulation in the right hand more explicitly approaches that of a flute players breathing.

Basically, it becomes an art to trick around the limitations of the instrument and wrest the best differentiation from what is by nature a one-man orchestra with too uniform a sound quality for its own good.

Now if you compare this to the results from using an arranger/expander, it is a completely different ball game. This setup does not even have dynamics (one would work this in using a volume pedal if at all). Differentiation of the voices is effortless since they all sound so differently, and you can easily get a good impression of the musical content even on laptop speakers or worse.

While one may consider this a whole lot of cheating, being able to cheat in this manner (and the orchestral settings of a Roland provide some similar cheating) actually gives good hints about what aspects may warrant stronger working out from an acoustic rendition. And I like the electronic instruments and tools (including the Roland) for their inspirational value in those respects.

 

[george garside]

Dingos comment about 48 'being very limiting' is very much a generalisation as ,yes, it would be for classical playing at perhaps playing with a string quartet or a brass band etc.

However I know several excellent players who use 48 bass for folk/trad and in dance bands particulary where ease of transport is required. Reasonable bass is available in FCGDA and enough to get by with in Eb and E

Most folk stuff gets played in different keys rather than written on tablets of stone and it is quite normal in 'folk dance' bands to swap keys around to provide a 'lift' between tunes in a dance , irrespective of what they may or may not be written in originally ( if written originally rather than being passed on by ear.)
The only possible problem would be if asked to accompany a singer who was rigid about requiring a key that your box doesn't have - but then you could always chuck in some extra treble chords!

There is also the 'other' 48 bass layout of 12x4 rather than 8x6 but that if fairly rare

George :ch {} {}