How low should the bass go?

[Mr Mark]

I suppose this is a matter of taste. And style of music/instrument. In this case I am talking a pretty standard 3/4 reed 80 bass 34 key piano accordion.

The question comes from a Weltmeister Gigantilli I that I have just rebuilt to find the lowest bass note is an F. I have owned probably close to 50 accordions (not very many very good ones ha) by now and this is the first one with a low F. Most I have found are low G, I think there has been some C's and only my first accordion was a D. Alas I wasn't paying attention to which octave the C's and D were but would assume 2 as these accordions were not anything high end or interesting.

But that low F sounds pretty great. Like, Fantastic.

This makes me wonder if I should want even lower bass notes - like bass accordion range down to C1. Or is this going to muddle things too much, and thus typical (piano) accordion bass only go down to G or so. I already know the accordion is designed with the reed range already inside in mind, and that is likely the best you should expect, but the tinkerer in me is curious to try. I'm not of the convention so much but understand it's significance...I guess this doesn't even get into the iceberg of where the break or balance is either but I wonder all the same.

And well trying stuff is one thing, sourcing reeds is another I suppose...

 

[John Doe]

Heck- on the 20 piano accordions lurking here 19 start at F, and one goes all the way down to C (an odd duck special purpose LLL no LH bass "Cello"- looks like a PA but is for use in an orchestra though I play it a cappella- the sound is very full and rich). Most of the 37 key and up instruments out there have the low F.

I'd love to have a low E, but some of the VanDamme models aside most extended keyboard accordions go up, not down. I have little personal use for the extended high end. Clearly as part of an orchestra the need would vary.

FWIW the lower reeds you seek would be a bit of a bear to put in a reedblock... and the reed block itself would not exactly fit with good grace into a "normal" case. You'd in effect come close to having to make most of an accordion. You could, of course, simply ditch the low F# and squish in an E and and F where the F and F# were. The first black key would then be the F and it'd take a while to adapt to the change.

I personally would badly miss the low F#- but you'd surely have a unique instrument...

CBA's, which normally go several notes lower, might well be a better bet for you if you're seeking an extended lower range.

 

[Mr Mark]

I meant on the bass side/section of the instrument! LLL sounds very interesting though!!! Do tell more!! Got any pics? ?

Orchestra or Accordion orchestra?

Bass accordions are a growing interest for me coincidentally but for less conventional reasons, so it is interesting you say that.

I do understand it would likely be a complex retrofit! The problem is I am actually capable...

Heck- on the 20 piano accordions lurking here 19 start at F, and one goes all the way down to C (an odd duck special purpose LLL no LH bass "Cello"- looks like a PA but is for use in an orchestra though I play it a cappella- the sound is very full and rich). Most of the 37 key and up instruments out there have the low F.

I'd love to have a low E, but some of the VanDamme models aside most extended keyboard accordions go up, not down. I have little personal use for the extended high end. Clearly as part of an orchestra the need would vary.

FWIW the lower reeds you seek would be a bit of a bear to put in a reedblock... and the reed block itself would not exactly fit with good grace into a "normal" case. You'd in effect come close to having to make most of an accordion. You could, of course, simply ditch the low F# and squish in an E and and F where the F and F# were. The first black key would then be the F and it'd take a while to adapt to the change.

I personally would badly miss the low F#- but you'd surely have a unique instrument...

CBA's, which normally go several notes lower, might well be a better bet for you if you're seeking an extended lower range.

 

[Dingo40]

Orchestra or Accordion orchestra?
Bass accordions are a growing interest for me

Paul Debra is our resident bass accordion player: he plays one in an accordion orchestra.
The designation "cello" refers to the treble range (no bass side) matching that of a cello
Here's a cello bass accordion in action on YouTube:

Another bass accordion, (also treble side only), different in style and effect:

More on the subject of bass accordion:

A final example (they are quite rare!)):

 

[John Doe]

I meant on the bass side/section of the instrument!

"Never pass up a chance to chew on one's foot", words I live by... My apologies.

Your proposal then centers on having the low note in the twelve reed set of low reeds in the LH side be an E (for example) ranging upwards from there for the full scale?

That would actually seem quite doable. The existing reed banks -usually four or five- are staggered of course, so that the break from the low E (if set up as above) to the octave above Eb would not stand out. I assume you'd do the lowest bank of really deep reeds and just adjust the others as appropriate. For a full five bank bass section you'd only have to do five reeds (subbing in the new low for the existing highest)- really one or perhaps two since tha extra half note would probably not skew things so much that the break would be really obnoxious. Convertor accordions make do with less comouflaged breaks in the bass and it's detectable if you're looking for it but still quite useable. Down to Eb- double that. There might well be some minor woodwork involved in getting the larger plates into the block and perhaps some chamber enlarging; but nothing beyond th pale. The difference in the bass plate sizes is surely there- but it's all in one octave so it's not like shoehorning a bassoon F in the high A position on a TH bank.

Orchestra or Accordion orchestra?

I was thinking of an accordion orchestra- which I have never actually encountered in person. Mr DeBras seems very active in the accordion versions and the Bass and Cello accordions would surely be very useful in such an ensemble.

In my case the Cello- and the one I play is the Frontalini as in the Bridge video, though of course I sound decidedly more amateurish and am not at all restricted to classical cello music; How HIgh the Moon is as likely as Bach for me- is purely a cappella and I do find it very satisfying indeed. Mr Bridge forgoes- in accordance with the Bach piece (quite lovely)- chords but the Cello accordion is just as capable of those as any piano accordion RH and of course sports five extra notes from C to F at the bottom end. It has a monster bellows so long uninterrupted sonorous phrases are no problem and it weighs in at about 19 pounds.

Good luck in your experimenting should you choose to do so; keep us posted-

Henry

Sorry for typos

 

[debra]

I meant on the bass side/section of the instrument! LLL sounds very interesting though!!! Do tell more!! Got any pics? ?

Orchestra or Accordion orchestra?

Bass accordions are a growing interest for me coincidentally but for less conventional reasons, so it is interesting you say that.

I do understand it would likely be a complex retrofit! The problem is I am actually capable...

A cello accordion is an accordion going down to C2 (treble side, and it has nothing on the "bass side").
A bass accordion is an accordion going down to C1 (treble side, and it has nothing on the "bass side").
(A few old and now rare bass accordions only went down to E1.)
On the bass side you can find many different variations. Italian accordions tend to go down to A1 nowadays. In the past I have seen C2, F1...
And if you have an accordion with melody bass (convertor or MIII) then the standard bass goes down to whatever the lowest note on the melody bass is. On most accordions that is E1 but smaller accordions do not go down this low, and some rare ones go down to C1 (I'd love to own one of these).

 

[debra]

...
Another bass accordion, (also treble side only), different in style and effect:

...

Don't be fooled by this one. Giulietti indeed had a bass accordion with a low B key but it was a dummy key.
I know of no bass accordion that has a working B0 key, and the likely reason is that C1 is the lowest reed in production at any reed maker, and as far as I know this has always been the case.
For an orchestra it is important nowadays to have a bass accordion that goes up to D4. Many bass accordions used to only go up to C4 but many compositions and arrangements now assume that the bass accordion has D4. (Afaik there is only one bass accordion that goes higher and also has Eb4, and that's the Pigini Basson C39, which actually has 40 notes despite its name. And I know this because I play one and actually use the Eb4 in some arrangements.)
Very old bass accordions only go up to A3. They are not so useful any more because many bass parts assume you can go higher than that.

 

[Walker]

In the symphony of sound, every pro comes with a quirky con:

Pro: I'm all about that bass, no treble!
Con: Those low tones are slower than a sloth in a daydream.

Pro: The low C2 note bursts into the scene with the energy of a caffeine-fuelled kangaroo.
Con: C2 doesn't have the punch to rattle my dental work (but kangaroos do, so be careful, just sayin').

Case study 1:

Consider the charming Hohner Gola 414 circa '63, with its C2 low note, not diving deep but gliding with the finesse and allure of a cello bowed sul tasto.

Case study 2:

The Petosa AM1100, a gem from the 1960s, struck an A1 so profound, it resonated with richness. However, any reed below C2 meandered like a snail on a leisurely Sunday stroll.

Case study 3:

And then there's the chap from the forum who went all out on a Victoria Poeta, flaunting a chromatic converter and an E1 note that could put cracks in the foundations of a fort. But his thrill quickly deflated when the accordion showed more lag than a jet-lagged greylag goose.​

 

[Mr Mark]

The lowest note currently is an F1. The idea would be to install C1,C#1,D1,D#1,E1 reeds in place of the corresponding existing 2's - so 5 reeds in total.

I will continue on my quest to find some reeds that fit the bill. That might be the hardest part. If they don't work for this they will work for something else!

I can see the response being the biggest issue, especially with all reeds activated. But there is a register with just the two lowest reeds activated so it might work out.

Hearing these videos with the extra deep bass makes me think this will all be worthwhile somehow .

I liked this one starting about 1:53

 

[Siegmund]

I thought I wanted these super-low bass notes until I actually got to try a couple accordions that had them.

The nowadays-standard setup with A1, A2, F#3, C4 as the lowest reeds in each bank has the merit that, as a rule, all of the reeds speak quite cleanly with any of the standard bass register switches.

My old Weltmeister has G1 - which is, well, nice, but in practice that low reed is almost inaudible, just adds a little bit of extra body.

And I have a brand new one from Mengascini that I'm trying to sell that goes down to E1 -- but I find that the low E/F/F# and sometimes even the G and Ab "growl" and cause all the other reeds sounding at the same time to have a bit of an uneven pulsating sound. As an effect, it's an interesting effect... but it's disturbing if you don't expect it, and they are SO slow to speak that the bass/alto switch is all but unusable. It seems to help if the 2nd-lowest rank is also active (with or without higher ranks) - the lowest rank without the second-lowest causes a very noticeable delay.

If I were having something custom made for myself, I wouldn't be going lower than G unless I had played a recent instrument made by the same builder where I actually liked how those lowest notes sounded.

 

[debra]

...
My old Weltmeister has G1 - which is, well, nice, but in practice that low reed is almost inaudible, just adds a little bit of extra body.
...

I'm not sure whether they did this in purpose. The biggest challenge for an accordion maker is to hide the octave jump in the bass. For this reason the octave jump isn't in the same spot on all (4 or 5) reed banks on most accordions. (It is at the same spot in many Hohner accordions.)
Making the lowest reeds play softer as you go down the scale helps to create the "Shepard tone" (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepard_tone).

 

[dak]

I suppose this is a matter of taste. And style of music/instrument. In this case I am talking a pretty standard 3/4 reed 80 bass 34 key piano accordion.

The question comes from a Weltmeister Gigantilli I that I have just rebuilt to find the lowest bass note is an F. I have owned probably close to 50 accordions (not very many very good ones ha) by now and this is the first one with a low F. Most I have found are low G, I think there has been some C's and only my first accordion was a D. Alas I wasn't paying attention to which octave the C's and D were but would assume 2 as these accordions were not anything high end or interesting.

But that low F sounds pretty great. Like, Fantastic.

This makes me wonder if I should want even lower bass notes - like bass accordion range down to C1. Or is this going to muddle things too much, and thus typical (piano) accordion bass only go down to G or so. I already know the accordion is designed with the reed range already inside in mind, and that is likely the best you should expect, but the tinkerer in me is curious to try. I'm not of the convention so much but understand it's significance...I guess this doesn't even get into the iceberg of where the break or balance is either but I wonder all the same.

And well trying stuff is one thing, sourcing reeds is another I suppose...

For a 3/4 reed, that seems excessive with a potential to go muddy. On a Capriole (some older GDR instrument) I had 4/5 reeds with the bass starting at F1 as well, unstaggered (so the other reed banks started at F2, F3, F4, F5). That worked well, but you could not switch off the F2 bank if I remember correctly. That made for a reasonable response and a nice sound that was not too tinny.

My main instrument starts at D1 in the free bass and you can use it without added D2 reed. The problem then is not just that the reed starts a bit sluggish (those are still rather good reeds) but that the note just is slow to be recognized. We are talking about 36.7Hz, and the next note is at 38.9Hz, 2.2Hz more. You need to hear those for half a second or so to tell them apart. It's kind of a muddy fart.

So you kind of depend on an octave reed on top if you go there with any kind of frequency (and when we are talking Stradella, you will), and in the interest of masking octave breaks, you rather want the chord reeds not to have a gap to the octave bass reeds, but if you use staggered starts at all, rather an overlap. And with just 4 reeds, you just might end up too low then.

Bass accordions tend to go all the way to C1 but always with at least a C2 sounding in parallel.

On the plus side for your plan, really low notes can be disproportionally loud without interfering with the treble soundscape. "Alpine accordions" with Helikon bass reed plates (trapezoid plates with octave reeds right besides the low reeds and long, often unweighted reeds) make use of that kind of setup.

 

[debra]

...
Bass accordions tend to go all the way to C1 but always with at least a C2 sounding in parallel.
...

Close but no cigar. Most bass accordions have a fixed LM configuration and go down to C1/C2 (L and M sounding together). The better (more expensive) ones all have an "Umlenkstimmstock" for the L reeds, acting a bit like a cassotto, meaning that the L reeds sound louder than the M reeds and the main function of the M reeds is to make the L reeds start faster.
However, there were bass accordions with registers in the past that could play the L reed alone. Today afaik there is just one left: the three voice Pigini P39 (PA) and C39 (CBA) with LMH configurations and registers to select L, LM, LH and LMH (so L is sounding in all registers which implies you cannot use the bass accordion as a cello accordion by shutting off the L. The Pigini has no Umlenkstimmstock so LM really sounds like LM and not like a strong L with a weak M thrown in the mix. Some people prefer it, others don't. It's a matter of taste.
And for the odd person who really really wants it there may be a "normal" accordion with the melody bass going down to C1, but I have only seen that on a bayan which implies it plays C1/C2 together.

 

[Mr Mark]

I can see (hear) where the sluggish response would be an issue. I think the F1 in mine must be voiced just right because it doesn't really have that issue. I think I can understand the cognizance issue too, judging by the sounds I'm hearing in the video I posted. The muddiness of it all. It might be that these low of reeds are only suited for slower passages of music anyway.

Poking around the Carini website the lowest reeds I can find appear to be only E1 anyway, so I'm not even sure where I would get these.

But it would still be cool to find some reeds this low and do some experimenting of things so I will carry on. Of course if anyone had any suggestions on where I could find these that would be awesome. Otherwise thanks all very much for the discussion and expertise here...I do enjoy learning more on the infinite world of accordions.