How much tremolo inconsistencies in MM reeds are acceptable?

[Jaime_Dergut]

Hello dear accordion community,

today I have a question for you all. Recently, I noticed ,on my busking accordion, that the tremolo on several MM(musette/Violin) tunes is faster, depending on how I squeeze the bellows: push or pull, I may get a faster tremolo.

My accordion mentor said that this should be expected depending on the brand (I am using a Hohner Arietta IIM) but I am still not comfortable with the discrepancies on tremolo speeds. Is this really normal?

I would like to tune the speed of the tremolo on the reeds to make them homologous with each other when using MM, although I am not really sure how.

That will be everything for now.

Thanks for your time and consideration.

Regards,

Jaime, the repairman.

 

[Glug]

Hiya, tremolo preferences and tuning have been discussed several times

You probably already know but the tremolo speed is the difference between the M and M+ reeds, so there are different reeds involved in push and pull - they need to be tuned to the same difference for the push/pull tremolo to be the same.

The difference is measured in beats per second (bps) and sounds best when it increases with the frequencey of the note.
On my 1959 Hohner Lucia F3 is 1.7bps tremolo and F6 is 7bps with a linear increase between - I measured it. That gives 16 cents 'musette' at A4 which is "German Musette". In general the increase is exponential but Hohner seemed to use linear back in the day.

Here's a previous discussion with graphs and everything: https://www.accordionists.info/threads/learning-to-tune.6469/

 

[Dingo40]

Is this really normal?

I'm probably tone deaf or just plain insensitive but I can't say I've noticed this phenomenon on any of my own accordions
Then again, all my accordions are absolutely Italian made.

 

[isorry123]

If you’re just busking…. It’s not a hard fix per se, just need a scratcher or file to spot tune the reeds.

A set of diamond files from your local hardware store would work

 

[craigd]

It's common for the tremelo frequency to increase as the notes get higher, but I don't think that's what you're talking about. Sometimes there is a marked difference between the draw and the squeeze tremelo of the same note and that is annoying. I think some inconsistency is inevitable, but if it's readily noticeable then it's too much.

 

[debra]

Inconsistencies in the tremolo are caused by the accordion going out of tune (over time). It is not a specific flaw in a certain accordion brand or model but occurs with all accordions that are not tuned regularly and have not been tuned for many years.
The more tremolo an accordion has the less you will notice the inconsistencies. Unless you are near deaf you should be able to hear a 10% inconsistency (and a 20% inconsistency will certainly bother you). If reeds in the middle range go out of tune by 2 cents after 5 years a very wet tuned accordion with 25 cents tremolo will have the tremolo vary between 23 and 27 cents and many people will not hear that. (It's under 10%). But if your accordion has 10 cents tremolo it will go towards tremolo between 8 and 12 cents and you will most certainly hear that unevenness.
And on a dry-tuned accordion (0 cents) the tuning will go between -2 and +2 cents and that will clearly sound out of tune.
I know people who think that after 30 years their accordion is still well in tune. 9 out of 10 of these people use either a very wet MM only or else use a wet MMM register all the time.
Another general observation I have made about (many, not all) accordion teachers is that they have very little knowledge about any technical aspect of the instrument itself. They will state that what I consider flaws in an accordion are "normal" (like problems with inconsistent tuning and voicing) and will accept that they have to play certain high notes (in piccolo register) only on pull or on push because only one direction works... And very close to 100% of the accordion teachers do not know how to fix even the tiniest problems.

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

Hiya, tremolo preferences and tuning have been discussed several times

You probably already know but the tremolo speed is the difference between the M and M+ reeds, so there are different reeds involved in push and pull - they need to be tuned to the same difference for the push/pull tremolo to be the same.

The difference is measured in beats per second (bps) and sounds best when it increases with the frequencey of the note.
On my 1959 Hohner Lucia F3 is 1.7bps tremolo and F6 is 7bps with a linear increase between - I measured it. That gives 16 cents 'musette' at A4 which is "German Musette". In general the increase is exponential but Hohner seemed to use linear back in the day.

Here's a previous discussion with graphs and everything: https://www.accordionists.info/threads/learning-to-tune.6469/

Thanks Glug, I will check this chart.

For this Hohner, I am not trying to change the tuning on the reeds but more like to understand if this tremolo inconsistency is a defect from the manufacturer that I should accept, or is there something I could do about it.


It is not a big deal in this case, but the note B near middle C has a faster tremolo when I push the bellows, and I think something might be wrong.

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

I'm probably tone deaf or just plain insensitive but I can't say I've noticed this phenomenon on any of my own accordions
Then again, all my accordions are absolutely Italian made.

I was told that it is probably a manufacturer defect, but I am not sure if I could just accept it. My ear has become too sensitive that I can sense the difference in tremolo speed. It is a nice German accordion for busking.

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

If you’re just busking…. It’s not a hard fix per se, just need a scratcher or file to spot tune the reeds.

A set of diamond files from your local hardware store would work

I am not sure if I really need to mess with the reeds. For what I understand, reeds have been tuned from fabric and therefore are fine unless something really bad happen to them, like if they get rusted or break. Mine seem alright, however.

What I think is happening is that the plastic valves or the wax are somehow messing with the cents on the outside reed.

I will share a video later with the accordion playing.

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

It's common for the tremelo frequency to increase as the notes get higher, but I don't think that's what you're talking about. Sometimes there is a marked difference between the draw and the squeeze tremelo of the same note and that is annoying. I think some inconsistency is inevitable, but if it's readily noticeable then it's too much.

Not at all. Bellow middle C, the tone B has the preset tremolo speed when I pull the bellows, but it gets fasters if I push them back.

It is indeed annoying, and I can hardly ignore it now. If this is how it came from the factory I guess I could live with it, but being honest, I also noticed other defects (like shorter plastic valves) that I was able to fix.

So I think I might be able to do something about this, if the reed itself is not the problem.

 

[Tom]

Not at all. Bellow middle C, the tone B has the preset tremolo speed when I pull the bellows, but it gets fasters if I push them back.

It is indeed annoying, and I can hardly ignore it now. If this is how it came from the factory I guess I could live with it, but being honest, I also noticed other defects (like shorter plastic valves) that I was able to fix.

So I think I might be able to do something about this, if the reed itself is not the problem.

Sure seems like the 2 B reeds are tuned slightly differently. An accordion coming from the factory with one or two reeds out of tune does not seem unusual. Yeah, it would be cool if you could address this by tweaking the leathers but it will be hard to get at the inner one. If not, you will probably have to ignore it or tune one reed yourself. Good luck!!!!

 

[Whasanike]

Hohner accordions have a 90 day warranty. What you are describing is a flaw if it is a new one. The reeds from China will break the more and louder you play. Before they break, the pitch goes flat. If the straight tuned reed goes flat, the tremolo speed increases. If the tremolo reed goes flat, it decreases. The steel is inferior to most European reeds and the reeds will not last the louder you try to play.

 

[debra]

I am not sure if I really need to mess with the reeds. For what I understand, reeds have been tuned from fabric and therefore are fine unless something really bad happen to them, like if they get rusted or break. Mine seem alright, however.
...

You really made me laugh (just by myself) here!
Reeds are tuned in the factory, and to start with they are tuned hastily and not very precisely. Which is why accordions may sound out of tune straight from the factory, to a listener with fine ears.
But then, due to time and possibly playing the accordion, reeds go out of tune. With a new accordion it is quite normal to start hearing reeds going out of tune during the first few months. A new accordion needs a "tune up" within the first year. After that it really depends on how much the accordion is played. With an amateur an accordion may need tuning every 3 to 5 years, with a professional each year (or even more often).
People who play an accordion for 30 years and think it is probably still good and does not need tuning at all are likely using only an MMM register with -25c/0/+25c tuning...

 

[losthobos]

I had this problem on a lovely accordion ....i also had it spot tuned by Emilio Allodi but that only lasted 48 hours.....I had the whole box tightened a few years later by Rob at Birmingham Accordion centre ...lovely job but the same two note tremelo difference still bugged me....
Eventually I changed the leathers on both push and pull reeds.....
Problem resolved and never reappeared....
Thanks to Paul Debra on here along with others for sharing the knowledge needed to complete this task ..

 

[debra]

I had this problem on a lovely accordion ....i also had it spot tuned by Emilio Allodi but that only lasted 48 hours.....I had the whole box tightened a few years later by Rob at Birmingham Accordion centre ...lovely job but the same two note tremelo difference still bugged me....
Eventually I changed the leathers on both push and pull reeds.....
Problem resolved and never reappeared....
Thanks to Paul Debra on here along with others for sharing the knowledge needed to complete this task ..

Especially in higher notes and with leather valves the tuning may not be very stable because of how the leathers behave. Tuning may also differ between piano and forte.
Several manufacturers who used leather valves up to high C6 or C#6 have switched to plastic valves for the highest 7 or 8 notes that still have valves.