wirralaccordion
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I would be interested to hear comments on the tone differences between these two accordions, the tune being played on the same two registrations on each accordion.
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Les bicyclettes de Belsize
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Stephen Hawkins
Experienced Gentleman.
Hi Phil,
I think the second one sounded better, though there was nothing wrong with either of them. Perhaps the second instrument was a little more mellow.
Hope that helps, but you haven't said why you are doing the comparison.
Kind Regards,
Stephen.
I think the second one sounded better, though there was nothing wrong with either of them. Perhaps the second instrument was a little more mellow.
Hope that helps, but you haven't said why you are doing the comparison.
Kind Regards,
Stephen.
the Brandoni is loads better (not that hard as the other seems to be a vintage, slightly out of tune instrument)
wirralaccordion
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Thats very interesting Jazz because on another thread ( https://www.accordionists.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7132 ) it was thought that my Brandoni was badly out of tune and a similar exercise ( using Dirks tuner for measurement ) on the Hohner shows that it, the Hohner, is not very far out!
It shows that we can all have diffrent perceptions of what is in tune and what is not. I myself find it very difficult to tell and I appreciate very much your comment.
It shows that we can all have diffrent perceptions of what is in tune and what is not. I myself find it very difficult to tell and I appreciate very much your comment.
wirralaccordion
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Stephen,
The above posts answer your question. Do any of the two instruments sound out of tune to you?
I have just purchased the Hohner Verdi ll for about 25% of what I paid for the Brandoni but mainly because it is lighter, having 3 reeds instead of 4 but yet 37 treble keys instead of 34!
It was tuned by South West Accordions in September 2014 so should be still OK.
Kind Regards,
Phil
The above posts answer your question. Do any of the two instruments sound out of tune to you?
I have just purchased the Hohner Verdi ll for about 25% of what I paid for the Brandoni but mainly because it is lighter, having 3 reeds instead of 4 but yet 37 treble keys instead of 34!
It was tuned by South West Accordions in September 2014 so should be still OK.
Kind Regards,
Phil
wirralaccordion
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I should just say I bought it for these reasons, not because it was cheap(er) than the Brandoni.
M
maugein96
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Phil,
I preferred the Hohner, as it was easier on my old ears than the Brandoni. I had heard the Brandoni before and never liked it then either. Having said that, it sounds like it has the potential to be a much better instrument, and it might be worth considering getting it retuned to maybe Italian or even German musette (unless your preference is for strong UK type musette tuning).
Most players who play French Cafe type music tend to be Eastern Europeans with "German" sounding boxes.
I preferred the Hohner, as it was easier on my old ears than the Brandoni. I had heard the Brandoni before and never liked it then either. Having said that, it sounds like it has the potential to be a much better instrument, and it might be worth considering getting it retuned to maybe Italian or even German musette (unless your preference is for strong UK type musette tuning).
Most players who play French Cafe type music tend to be Eastern Europeans with "German" sounding boxes.
wirralaccordion post_id=64982 time=1544612688 user_id=2229 said:
well I stand corrected, if it was measured; but that either one is out of tune is evident
without reference its hard to tell which one is out of tune but because the Brandoni was newer I guessed it was the other one :mrgreen:
still I like the Brandoni over the other... it cuts better
wirralaccordion
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maugein96 said
maugein96 - I am curious to know what these tunings are in terms of cents or %. Can you advise?
There is a recommendation on another thread that a tuning of +16%, 0, -5% gives a very pleasing tone on this specific instrument ( LMMM ) and I am currently trying to find a tuner who can do this for me.
maugein96 - I am curious to know what these tunings are in terms of cents or %. Can you advise?
There is a recommendation on another thread that a tuning of +16%, 0, -5% gives a very pleasing tone on this specific instrument ( LMMM ) and I am currently trying to find a tuner who can do this for me.
M
maugein96
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wirralaccordion post_id=64989 time=1544626222 user_id=2229 said:
Phil,
It seems the definitions can vary from tuner to tuner.
Mick Hurseys site http://www.mick-hursey.co.uk/accordions/musette-an-explanation/
quotes German tuning as 14 cents with Italian at 18 cents.
That being the case 16 cents seems to be just about bang on, although as with all tunings youll never really know what its going to sound like until after its done.
The only issue with some of the less common tunings in the UK is the tuner may not have experience of them. The reeds will be 16 cents at the A of 440Hz, but I believe they have to reduce the gap in the higher octaves in order to balance things out. Some tuners arent keen to experiment and Ive had one ask me for a tuning chart so that he could get one of my French boxes to 8 cents. Obviously I was unable to oblige and the box was done to the best of his ability. It isnt far off, but its not quite perfect. It may well be that some tuners would be happy to try and achieve any type of musette tuning, but time is money as always.
Youd probably be looking at £600 for a full refurb and retune, and it might not be worth the money.
wirralaccordion
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Hi maugein96
Interesting site that ( Mick Hursey's tone generator ) Pity there isn't a trinaural tone generatot as well as the binaural then I could have checked the equivalent of three reeds simultaneously at +16%, 0, -5%.
It looks like only the tunings with equal intervals on either side of 0 have been given names.
Interesting site that ( Mick Hursey's tone generator ) Pity there isn't a trinaural tone generatot as well as the binaural then I could have checked the equivalent of three reeds simultaneously at +16%, 0, -5%.
It looks like only the tunings with equal intervals on either side of 0 have been given names.
M
maugein96
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Hi Phil,
Even those tunings that have official titles can vary by quite a bit. Some players liked to experiment with their tunings so that the flatness of one reed isn't equal to the sharpness of the other etc.
Andre Verchuren's tuner used to be bombarded with requests from people, amateurs and pros alike, asking for their boxes to be tuned the same. Now, he had access to Verchuren's accordions and was able to make note of what each reed was tuned at. He frankly admitted that even after many years of trying he was unable to replicate the sound of Verchuren's accordion exactly. Even when he was presented with exactly the same box model and the same reeds it just wasn't possible.
There is obviously scope to consider he was paid handsomely to ensure that he never made a facsimile of Verchuren's accordion, but I suppose only a very few people will know if that was indeed the case. Verchuren's son, Harry Williams, played a box identical to his father's, with the only difference being that it was a C system and his father's was B system.
I would wager that both boxes were tuned identically, but the fact was Harry Williams wasn't possessed of the same technique as his father, and the boxes sounded different. I therefore share the view with other members that tuning is one thing, but producing the sound is another. Bellows expression and control, together with the style of attack of the right hand, can have a major effect on the sound of the same instrument, and it is often the case that one player sounds different to another on the very same accordion.
I lived in Edinburgh for some years where there was a sizeable Italian community, and the minority of Italian accordionists who played CBA preferred a lighter musette to the typical Scottish tuning. To that extent quite a few Paolo Soprani Internazionale CBA models used to circulate in the Edinburgh music shops, but the Scottish players didn't like them, as the musette wasn't strong enough, and the treble buttons were all white instead of the usual black and white bicolour found on Scottish CBAs. Consequently, they were a bit cheaper than the equivalent Scottish tuned boxes of the same make, and if I had been a bit more "accordion wise" at the time my house would have been full of them, instead of the French boxes I ended up buying. French musette on an Italian accordion shouldn't really be an issue for we non-French types, but I was image conscious in those days. The Sopranis came in any shade of black or pearloid red, but they were probably the best all round LMMM CBA accordions available in Scotland at the time, for those of us who didn't play in the Scottish style.
Hindsight is one of the greatest tools the world has ever seen, and it's just a pity we can't take advantage of it 30 odd years before it becomes useful.
I'd say that you have a winner with the Hohner and don't be in too much of a hurry to rush into anything else yet.
Even those tunings that have official titles can vary by quite a bit. Some players liked to experiment with their tunings so that the flatness of one reed isn't equal to the sharpness of the other etc.
Andre Verchuren's tuner used to be bombarded with requests from people, amateurs and pros alike, asking for their boxes to be tuned the same. Now, he had access to Verchuren's accordions and was able to make note of what each reed was tuned at. He frankly admitted that even after many years of trying he was unable to replicate the sound of Verchuren's accordion exactly. Even when he was presented with exactly the same box model and the same reeds it just wasn't possible.
There is obviously scope to consider he was paid handsomely to ensure that he never made a facsimile of Verchuren's accordion, but I suppose only a very few people will know if that was indeed the case. Verchuren's son, Harry Williams, played a box identical to his father's, with the only difference being that it was a C system and his father's was B system.
I would wager that both boxes were tuned identically, but the fact was Harry Williams wasn't possessed of the same technique as his father, and the boxes sounded different. I therefore share the view with other members that tuning is one thing, but producing the sound is another. Bellows expression and control, together with the style of attack of the right hand, can have a major effect on the sound of the same instrument, and it is often the case that one player sounds different to another on the very same accordion.
I lived in Edinburgh for some years where there was a sizeable Italian community, and the minority of Italian accordionists who played CBA preferred a lighter musette to the typical Scottish tuning. To that extent quite a few Paolo Soprani Internazionale CBA models used to circulate in the Edinburgh music shops, but the Scottish players didn't like them, as the musette wasn't strong enough, and the treble buttons were all white instead of the usual black and white bicolour found on Scottish CBAs. Consequently, they were a bit cheaper than the equivalent Scottish tuned boxes of the same make, and if I had been a bit more "accordion wise" at the time my house would have been full of them, instead of the French boxes I ended up buying. French musette on an Italian accordion shouldn't really be an issue for we non-French types, but I was image conscious in those days. The Sopranis came in any shade of black or pearloid red, but they were probably the best all round LMMM CBA accordions available in Scotland at the time, for those of us who didn't play in the Scottish style.
Hindsight is one of the greatest tools the world has ever seen, and it's just a pity we can't take advantage of it 30 odd years before it becomes useful.
I'd say that you have a winner with the Hohner and don't be in too much of a hurry to rush into anything else yet.
Stephen Hawkins
Experienced Gentleman.
Hi Phil,
Neither of them sounded bad to me; it is just that I preferred the second one. Sound reproduction on a laptop isn't the best quality, so factor that into your equation.
Kind Regards,
Stephen.
Neither of them sounded bad to me; it is just that I preferred the second one. Sound reproduction on a laptop isn't the best quality, so factor that into your equation.
Kind Regards,
Stephen.
Eddy Yates
Well-known member
I liked the balance between the left and right hand better on the second one (Hohner?)
A musical comment, more a question: I’ve noticed that a lot of accordionists really emphasize each beat of a waltz, as in ONE Two three ONE two three by bellows and leg movement. Is this because some dancers like to hear that? I’m always trying to emulate the voice and keep the melody line long rather than break it up with the beat of the left hand.
A musical comment, more a question: I’ve noticed that a lot of accordionists really emphasize each beat of a waltz, as in ONE Two three ONE two three by bellows and leg movement. Is this because some dancers like to hear that? I’m always trying to emulate the voice and keep the melody line long rather than break it up with the beat of the left hand.
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