Limex Pro Mic vs. Sennheiser MT

[jozz]

As a suggestion, try to make your own. It is not that hard and its VERY cheap compared to the systems that you are talking about, with very similar results.

If anyone wants the schematics of my system, PM me and i will be happy to send it and give support on building/installing. (it all costs no more than $20 dollars)

Ok nice one, this is very encouraging. Not that I am anywhere near experienced with electronics, but in theory I have all components and a general idea on how to proceed.

Im going to PM you. :b

 

[Geronimo]

What I find irritating about accordion mic systems are the batteries and unbalanced output: why not use a balanced connection and phantom power? You could go directly into a mixer, and even when using an instrument amp without suitable input, you'd have a wagonload of options for in-between.

Instead you get to buy custom "power supply units" of various provenance with unique connectors. Now of course one advantage is that if you are going unwired, going via phantom power is a battery drain. But even then, there are now cheap Chinese "large diaphragm studio microphones" (obviously electret, and some scepticism about the large diaphragm is probably warranted) you can connect to phantom power or, with a delivered cable, to a 3.5mm jack with plugin power as is wont on computer sound cards as microphone input. So this kind of circuitry seems doable, even if the "balanced" connection more likely than not is a joke.

I bought a phantom-to-plugin adapter myself using a mini-XLR connector. Unfortunately I had to find that it's a 2-wire system while the mic I use it on is actually a 3-wire. Probably the best quality solution would involve modifying the adapter (Monacor ECA-300P I think) to separate power from signal but that would likely make it harder to resell (I got this perhaps 7 years ago for €20, it's now listed at €50, WTF?). It does have a transformer inside, so it's likely good for routing through balanced multicore stagebox lines.

I digress. So what's wrong with phantom power and balanced lines when not doing wireless? Why does nobody do that?

 

[jozz]

I'n not sure what you mean? I see loads of people do that. Most of the time it's not built-in but just clip-on. AKG is big with that. But I've also seen people that mount an XLR male into the chassis that inside continues to mini-XLR's to hook up condensor mic's and bass. If that's what you mean.

 

[Geronimo]

In not sure what you mean? I see loads of people do that. Most of the time its not built-in but just clip-on. AKG is big with that. But Ive also seen people that mount an XLR male into the chassis that inside continues to mini-XLRs to hook up condensor mics and bass. If thats what you mean.

Hm? If I look at AKG for accordion, I see things like the AKG C516ML using mini-XLR with an AKG-specific pinout, unbalanced lines, and requiring an external power supply. Quote: can be used with the B 29 L battery power supply, AKG WMS Series bodypack transmitters, or the MPA V L adapter for external phantom powering.

Youd need one MPA V L adapter for every microphone and it puts you out of another cool €50 apiece (if you are lucky) and is a separate thing to drag around.

 

[debra]

What I find irritating about accordion mic systems are the batteries and unbalanced output: why not use a balanced connection and phantom power? You could go directly into a mixer, and even when using an instrument amp without suitable input, youd have a wagonload of options for in-between.
...

The system I use, and the often used Sennheiser system, rely on a 9V battery to provide a low voltage phantom power. The output is certainly strong enough to go through a good cable without picking up any hum. I believe that the actual microphone capsules that require 48V phantom power are much more expensive (and hopefully better?) than the small capsules used in the internal accordion mic systems.
I do have a small instrument amp that only has jack connections, and the systems with 9V batteries plug into that directly which is really convenient. For the more serious stuff I do have a recorder that provides 48V phantom power and the Bose Tonematch I use at performances also provides 48V power. Both seem to do just fine with unbalanced jack input as well, even when using jack (unbalanced) in some input and xlr with phantom power in other inputs.

 

[Geronimo]

What I find irritating about accordion mic systems are the batteries and unbalanced output: why not use a balanced connection and phantom power? You could go directly into a mixer, and even when using an instrument amp without suitable input, youd have a wagonload of options for in-between.
...

The system I use, and the often used Sennheiser system, rely on a 9V battery to provide a low voltage phantom power. The output is certainly strong enough to go through a good cable without picking up any hum.

A good cable may easily measure 30m from stage box to recording equipment. And the point of a balanced cable connection is common mode rejection: it blocks the hum picked up the whole instrument ground with respect to the recording equipment.

I believe that the actual microphone capsules that require 48V phantom power are much more expensive (and hopefully better?) than the small capsules used in the internal accordion mic systems.

48V is used for unpolarised condensor capsules, but more expensive mics have quite a bit of additional conditioning (I think that Røde doubles that voltage internally in order to get their impressive SNR values). But of course it can be used for other purposes, like powering an active DI or, well, powering condenser preamps even when not needing polarisation voltage.

I do have a small instrument amp that only has jack connections, and the systems with 9V batteries plug into that directly which is really convenient. For the more serious stuff I do have a recorder that provides 48V phantom power and the Bose Tonematch I use at performances also provides 48V power. Both seem to do just fine with unbalanced jack input as well, even when using jack (unbalanced) in some input and xlr with phantom power in other inputs.

Sure, but why require an additional non-standard box when you could default to working straight on a balanced connection with phantom power, and optionally use a stock solution when wanting unbalanced connections?

 

[jozz]

Youd need one MPA V L adapter for every microphone and it puts you out of another cool €50 apiece (if you are lucky) and is a separate thing to drag around.

Haha yeah, but still they are near the cheapest option of the industry standards. I just had a talk with a sound guy, but he says dont bother, just spend the 50 on the thomann housebrand, t.bone CC100. They have a bunch of them in the cabinet and always produce good results. Or so he says. I think it all depends on overall volume. If its not delicate then it becomes academic.

Here is a small side-by-side initial test pitting the internal MT-04 vs. a very nice Philips LBB9050 on a stand.

 

[Geronimo]

Youd need one MPA V L adapter for every microphone and it puts you out of another cool €50 apiece (if you are lucky) and is a separate thing to drag around.

Haha yeah, but still they are near the cheapest option of the industry standards. I just had a talk with a sound guy, but he says dont bother, just spend the 50 on the thomann housebrand, t.bone CC100. They have a bunch of them in the cabinet and always produce good results. Or so he says. I think it all depends on overall volume. If its not delicate then it becomes academic.

Here is a small side-by-side initial test pitting the internal MT-04 vs. a very nice Philips LBB9050 on a stand.

Huh. The CC100 is basically the MPA V L adapter except that a clip-on microphone is included (youll still need some mount). Sounds like it could be an interesting option for accordion pickup on its own. Certainly much cheaper than an AKG setup.

 

[JerryPH]

To make a kit like this is not hard, as long as you have at least some understanding of the basic concepts of electronics... like what is positive, negative, what is a battery and can follow clear instructions.

First, the basics, how to make ONE electret mic work:

<YOUTUBE id=LycH4cXgx7Q url=></YOUTUBE>

After this one video, you have 90% of the knowledge needed. So, what is needed to make an accordion microphone set from all this?

- multiple electret mics. You can get those for pennies from Aliexpress.com
- a small pre-amp made to power electret mics signal higher. Same place... Aliexpress.com
- capacitors (any electrical store, you can get 100 for $5)
- resistors (any electrical store, you can get 100 for $5)
- a power source (several AA batteries, a 9 volt battery or even an external power source, which can be even something like a 48 volt phantom power source).

Where the real artistry comes in, is in the packaging. A metal strip or circuit board or even a wooden strip will all work, but it is fine work that will take up most of your time. The rest is easy... making the holes and assembling it all and what not.

I once calculated the costs for a 30 electret mic for the right hand and 20 electret mics for the left hand, 2 amps, and other parts to all come out to well under $50 delivered to my home! Of course that was ridiculous overkill, but hey, that is how I roll... lol

Not sure if I said it earlier, so pardon me if I repeat myself, but my thoughts on the subject are posted on my blog from a post I made back in 2016:
http://www.accordionmemories.com/custom-high-end-mic-system/

 

[Geronimo]

I once calculated the costs for a 30 electret mic for the right hand and 20 electret mics for the left hand, 2 amps, and other parts to all come out to well under $50 delivered to my home! Of course that was ridiculous overkill, but hey, that is how I roll... lol

Its not just overkill but counterproductive. Having so many mics in close vicinity gives you phase cancelling effects that are likely to give you a less rather than more even response.

 

[jozz]

Still, nice vids, thanks for sharing :!:

I'm going to do some more extensive testing with the MT, before I tear it apart

I think for me the difference is negligible, but it would be so cool to make my own custom system

 

[debra]

While such electret capsules can be sourced cheaply they may come with two problems: 1) poor low frequency performance, making them less suitable for the bass and certainly for the bass accordion, and 2) poor quality sound reproduction of the tremolo (MM) register, as has been demonstrated here in the past.
The "Sennheiser" system often used in accordions and the Microvox system I use have (supposedly) higher quality mics (made by Sennheiser) and we have used both systems on normal accordions as well as bass accordions and they perform quite well. It is best to pay a bit more for better capsules, like better use 5 good mics (4 treble, 1 bass) than 20 crap ones.

 

[JerryPH]

... why require an additional non-standard box when you could default to working straight on a balanced connection with phantom power, and optionally use a stock solution when wanting unbalanced connections?

A couple of reasons... first, the design of some systems does not require 48 volt phantom power. Most condenser mics require 48 volts for optimal results, however, dynamic mics like the Shure SM58 do not require any additional voltage and still offer a very good level of quality and output levels. Using those capsules is not a $500 option, as replacement capsules that could be used inside or outside the accordion are under $75US brand new (complete mics are well under $100US), and likely much less if found used.

Now, how high of a quality does one really need? Well, that depends on your needs and your scenario, however, if we are talking for the vast majority of the people here, the big dollar options are really not viable. Second, you kind of already mentioned... the optimum solution for strollers or stage performers, that being able to go wireless. With dynamic mics this is a zero trouble issue. Using condenser mics requires additional complexity (though it is not impossible).

This weekend I will be making a new blog post and video that discusses this and I think I have a few surprises here for the people that are following this thread.

 

[JerryPH]

While such electret capsules can be sourced cheaply they may come with two problems: 1) poor low frequency performance, making them less suitable for the bass and certainly for the bass accordion, and 2) poor quality sound reproduction of the tremolo (MM) register, as has been demonstrated here in the past.
The Sennheiser system often used in accordions and the Microvox system I use have (supposedly) higher quality mics (made by Sennheiser) and we have used both systems on normal accordions as well as bass accordions and they perform quite well. It is best to pay a bit more for better capsules, like better use 5 good mics (4 treble, 1 bass) than 20 crap ones.

 

[Geronimo]

While such electret capsules can be sourced cheaply they may come with two problems: 1) poor low frequency performance, making them less suitable for the bass and certainly for the bass accordion, and 2) poor quality sound reproduction of the tremolo (MM) register, as has been demonstrated here in the past.

Actually, Id not be afraid of the tremolo here: I attribute the wide range of resulting qualities to partial vibration modes of the membrane and/or an inhomogenous audio field, and electret capsules tend to be pressure receivers with a small membrane.

That makes them noisy but otherwise comparatively robust. When they are indeed pressure receivers (typical for omnidirectional capsules which the cheap ones mostly are) one should not even have to worry about the bass response.

With regard to inhomogenuous audio fields, there is no trouble to be expected for isolated capsules. If we are talking about capsule arrays, thats trickier. So anybody experimenting with 30 mic capsules should certainly check the performance of this setup when using tremolo registrations.

The Sennheiser system often used in accordions and the Microvox system I use have (supposedly) higher quality mics (made by Sennheiser) and we have used both systems on normal accordions as well as bass accordions and they perform quite well. It is best to pay a bit more for better capsules, like better use 5 good mics (4 treble, 1 bass) than 20 crap ones.

You can increase signal-to-noise ratio by using better mics or going closer. The more distance you have, the less difference will there be motivating using more microphones. The closer you get to the sound source, the harsher the results will be: good soloist instruments sound best at some distance. So if you are going for a natural tone rather than raw material which you turn into your sound using effects and (in performance settings) amplification, the crap, but lots of it approach is not likely to lead to interesting results.