Long-term piano accordionist newly learning CBA - experiences?

[vivdunstan]

I‘m very tempted to get an extremely compact 4-row C CBA - I have my eyes on one particular model. But I’m curious to hear from other experienced piano accordionists re how you found picking up the fingering. Was it a challenge? Did it take an awful lot of practice? How are you getting on? Are you happy you tried it or do you regret it? Any tips re things to do or avoid?

I’ve played piano accordion for not far off 50 years since I was very tiny. Sadly I’ve had a progressive neurological disease since I was 22. But do still play as much as I can. I‘m now more likely to be playing my second compact 48 bass than my long term 72 bass - just easier for me to get out and manage. It’s also why I’d only consider a very compact CBA, most likely 60 bass.

An added complication is that my neurological disease means I’m often weaker down my right side. I recovered a lot of right hand control after effectively a stroke in 2004, helping by teaching myself an extremely difficult piano piece! But it is an ongoing issue. Which would make picking up new fingering harder. But that exercise alone might be good to keep my brain and hand control going as long as possible.

Anyway interested in hearing views. Thanks! If I do get a CBA box I’m thinking of getting the English language version of the Galliano complete method book, which includes fingering for C CBA.

 

[Ffingers]

Look up Chromatic Button Accordion on youtube - there are several videos with useful hints there.

 

[debra]

My wife and I made the switch to CBA about 13 years ago now, after having played piano accordion for our whole life (starting quite young).
It's not very hard to get started (I made my first public appearance with the first CBA about 10 days into the process) but it takes a lot of practice and perseverance to become as good as you were on PA (at least, if you were very good). Common wisdom says it takes about 6 years to reach the "old" level, and our experience mirrors this. We kept going (and motivated each other) and now we are very happy that we did.
I'm not sure that going for an "extremely compact" CBA is going to make you happy. An accordion must first and foremost be a good fit (physically). So if you like CBA and get going well you may soon find that you want an instrument closer to the size of the PA you are used to...
And if you are looking for good, quick methods for making the transition (books, youtube movies...) you might as well stop looking. The whole process of making the transition can be easily summarized in three words: practice, practice, practice.

 

[Dingo40]

Several members here began on PA and moved to CBA: there are various past threads detailing their experiences .
One such is Paul Debra, but there are others as well .
Can't remember anyone going the other way, though

 

[dunlustin]

4 rows are plenty but the 5th does give you more choices - that may be helpful to you.
A CBA being more compact should also be a help - none of those long piano stretches.
More choices for scales, more regularity for chords/arpeggios.
Don't buy heavier than you need - is 2 voice tremolo enough/ would bando tuning LM appeal.
Is there a real weight gain with a 60 bass vs 72?
Buy the best you can afford.

 

[Walker]

Play whatever gives enjoyment and allows you to make the most expressive and musical performances. Music matters more than systems. However, if you want a good challenge, I think trying button system could be a great idea - but for a while at least there might me less music and more graft.

Sure, sometimes those who find difficulty with the technical demands of piano accordion switch to button system and don't go back. Also, sometimes great piano accordionists take up the button accordion and stick with it. However, some great piano accordionists learn button system and then go back to playing piano key, like former world champion Mirco Patarini.

Both systems have advantages and disadvantages. I like the more linear nature and larger keys of a piano keyboard but others prefer the ergonomics of button system. I am sure you will work out what matters to you most when you get started.

 

[petch]

+1 for 5 row if you can find one that's the right size for you

If I do get a CBA box I’m thinking of getting the English language version of the Galliano complete method book, which includes fingering for C CBA.

I tried learning fingering from books and struggled. They very rarely give alternate fingerings so if the one provided for you doesn't work well for you, you're on your own! I found having a tutor really useful in that regard. I don't think there's a single piece that came with fingering suggestions we haven't amended in some way

 

[saundersbp]

I play both, a lifetime on piano type keys on pianos and organs and then since the pandemic also on chromatic keyboards.

On the point of your posting, which is neurological disease, I've personally found the brain work involved in learning the coordination for something new very valuable, and it's not an isolated benefit. I find I am much less sloppy with piano fingering now than I used to be having had to think about it carefully on the chromatic keyboard. In other words I'm more in touch with my fingers than I was before taking the learning journey.

 

[Walker]

I've personally found the brain work involved in learning the coordination for something new very valuable, and it's not an isolated benefit

Well that's a good point. I don't know, but I wonder if changing keyboard system is more beneficial than retaining the existing system and learning a new style of music or playing more technically challenging music. Whilst learning a new keyboard would be a fantastic challenge, it might lead to a lot of frustration if finding suitable learning materials is as difficult as others suggest.

 

[vivdunstan]

Many thanks all for the really helpful comments! Lots to think about

Re size I'd want to get a box less than 6kg in weight. 72 bass is my long term piano accordion but it's nearly 7kg and I find my 5.5kg or so 48 bass second box much easier to manage now with my illness. Though it is a compromise on notes on both treble and bass sizes. If I get a CBA I'd be really keen it is similarly compact for me to manage, but with CBA being more compact I could get some extra treble and bass keys, which I would appreciate. Thinking of a 37/60 2 voice model. 5 rows would push the weight up way too much though. 4 rows is a compromise, but I think could work.

Re fingering, well that's the challenge! I'd be happy to experiment with books and YouTube videos, and not stick to the written fingering if something else suits me better. One thing I really like about the thought of CBA is the workout it would give my right hand especially, which needs that help with my brain disease especially affecting that hand. Though against that my brain disease especially affects my right hand, and may do so worse in future. So this would be a gamble.

Re trying harder tunes on the piano accordions I already play I've tried that to an extent over the past year. But one option would be to throw myself into the 6 "musette 110" books I have and adore, but have just played a fraction of.

But I am still ever so tempted by a CBA. And if I could get a light enough box I could keep working at I would put in the practice, and expect very slow - years - progress at best.

But yup, lots to think about over the Christmas period, and in discussion with my husband (who supports me totally, but is very level headed, and will help me decide in difficult circumstances). Thanks so much all!

 

[dunlustin]

Saltarelle Chaville
4 rows weight 5.85 kg
5 rows weight 5.95 kg
I would say it's not so much the weight as whether for you the challenge (?) of the slightly greater reach is a problem.
The hand made reeds might well be more responsive and give more volume for a given bellows movement?
See here:

Chaville | Saltarelle Accordions

www.saltarelle.com

Hear here:

 

[vivdunstan]

I would say it's not so much the weight as whether for you the challenge (?) of the slightly greater reach is a problem.

That’s really helpful, thanks. And thanks for the lead re the box. I’ve small hands and extra reaching is likely to be problematic. Which also means some contortions for a 4 row box may be challenging too! But I don’t think 5 row is ideal for me.

 

[vivdunstan]

P.S. it’s really nice to hear of a maker who offers 5 row without big weight gain. At many others I’ve looked at that isn’t the case. I’m favouring a custom Maugein Dauphin with musette tuning (my rather unfashionable today taste ) but it is lovely to hear of others. Thanks @dunlustin!

 

[dunlustin]

Maugein Dauphin
Now that looks like a bargain.
Maugein are said to be the only people making their instruments entirely from scratch.
They are also strongly supported by the local council as an important - and famous - employer. Strong links with Cavagnolo.
(Also by an even more famous Arsenal footballer.)
From memory, 4 rows were very common in France.
I think 5th row became a fashion because in theory a single fingering covered all major keys (and another for minor keys).
(One firm even produced a 5 row called "Transposer" - Weltmeister?)
It's the 4th row that really simplifies playing.
PS Pinned reeds are said to have a different sound compared to waxed reeds. Some don't like this.

 

[petch]

Someone may correct me but I believe 4 rows is popular in France because the 'French' style of playing CBA seldom uses the thumb on buttons (and when it does it's mostly on the first row) and instead rests it on the edge of the accordion. So the 5th or is a bit of a stretch to reach with that style of playing, whereas the other style is to use the thumb on the any of the first three rows

Here is an example of someone playing with the French style

 

[SteveBox]

Hi Vivdunstan,

I switched from PA to CBA about 17 years ago. Initially I borrowed a CBA from a friend for several months to try it out. Then I was lucky enough to find a used Castagnari Magica Junior, 4 row/C system/60 bass, very similar to the Maugein Dauphin, except for a cherry wood case and 3 reeds on the treble (see photo). My experience with switching from PA to CBA is similar to what others have experienced. You will have to be motivated to keep practicing, because at first you will feel like a beginner again.

One thing I did not realize back then is that what I had purchased was a CBA designed for the French market, which is likely also the case for the Maugein. The 60 bass format is a French design that is equivalent to a 72 bass Italian Stradella, but with the seventh and diminished chords combined into one row by using a special voicing, such that this one row can be used for both seventh and diminished chords. Here is an article that explains this system:

The Classical Free-Reed, Inc.: Essays: French Stradella System (ksanti.net)

If you seldom use diminished chords, you probably won't notice the difference, but if you do want a diminished chord, you will have to reach down one position to get it. Personally, I like this more compact bass system, but some may not. There is also a French Stradella variation that adds a sixth row of buttons as a counter-bass row of minor thirds, giving you three rows of bass notes and three rows of chords.

Another feature of a French CBA is that they are always C system and are often only 4 rows. As with removing a row of buttons on the bass, having only 4 rows on the treble contributes to a more compact instrument. As I understand it, the reason 4 rows are seen as sufficient is related to the traditional French school that taught one to play using mostly the four fingers and mostly on the first three rows. However, there are some musical passages where it can feel awkward without the thumb to reach down to the first row for a note. In these cases, the fourth row (duplicate of the first) is provided as a helper row, as it can be less awkward to reach up to this row than down to the first. One can find many YouTube examples of French CBA players using this old school fingering.

I taught myself to play the 4 row CBA without a teacher or method book (in other words, not knowing what I was doing), and for a long time I had wondered why the French preferred a 4 row. So, this is my understanding from reading many online discussions over the years. This does not mean you must adopt the old French four finger style if you have one of these instruments. I use my thumb a lot, wherever it makes the fingering easier, especially for fast passages. As I understand it, many modern French players and teachers encourage the use of the thumb, as has always been the case in other countries. However, I do find that doing some occasional practice using only four fingers is useful for improving their strength and flexibility.

One reason to pick a 5 row, of course, is that you will have more possibilities for easy transposing of tunes you have learned, provided you learned to play the tune on three rows. I would suggest that you should start out playing tunes on only the first three rows, as much as possible. There are also CBAs with 6 rows, each row being duplicated. I have no idea what extra advantages this gives you.

Then there is the perpetual discussion of C-system vs B-system, and which is better. That I cannot say. There are great players of each system, so they probably work equally well.

There are many fingering possibilities on a CBA. From the method books I have looked at, it appears every author has a different idea of what is the best fingering. Experiment a lot and see what works best for you.

One other thing I have learned about CBAs is that the button size and spacing is not standardized. Some have 14-15mm buttons with a closer spacing, and others have 16-17 mm buttons with a slightly wider spacing. My impression is that most of the French CBAs have the smaller buttons and spacing. Although the difference is small, if you are concerned about finger stretch, maybe there is some advantage for you with the smaller buttons. On the other hand, the larger buttons have slightly more surface area, so your aim is a little less critical.

Good luck.

 

[losthobos]

@vivdunstan ...if your interested message me as I am considering selling my Maugein Export 80bass CBA...
Hope that helps..

 

[vivdunstan]

Thanks so much folks for the new replies. Thanks especially to @SteveBox for the bass comments! Very enlightening

 

[vivdunstan]

Update: I’ve ordered a 60 bass Maugein Dauphin CBA. To be made up, but it’s all ordered. I was very tempted by the custom musette tuning, but after a number of plays of the audio recording even my Scottish ears were slightly struggling with it! So rather than go for a fully custom model I’ve gone for the Rouge Passion standard one, with Swing tuning, a tuning which my husband and I both like. That was the first Dauphin model I spotted and was really tempted by until the tuning question threw me for a while. The company’s prices are probably going up on 1st January due to the energy costs. So I’m rather glad I nabbed this now. Though I would have waited to decide if not so sure. Here is a picture of the model I’m getting.

 

[Dingo40]

Gorgeous!