Merits of learning scales on CBA

[Snoopz]

As noted elsewhere, I started learning CBA on my own. I dutifully started playing my scales as suggested in many books and websites. But an interesting question popped up: If I only ever learn the scales in simple up-and-down-style, as suggested in most resources, will any of it ever translate to playing actual music?

Consider: I'm playing the C major scale (two octaves) using Maugein's pattern 1-2-3-4-5-1-2-1-2-3-4-5-1-2-1. Suppose now that I want to play a melody containing A-C-E. Using the scale pattern, I would play 1-1-2, which is obviously nonsense. If I were to devise my own pattern, I would probably play 1-2-3 or 1-2-4, which is completely different, so the finger movements don't transfer at all between scales and melody. Obviously, this is only a very simple example, it probably gets worse with more notes.

To summarize: What is the benefit of playing scales?

 

[dak]

The fastest things you are going to play are runs and trills. Runs are essentially scale pieces. And the kind of regroup and reaim of fingers that you need for tackling smooth melody play also is what will happen in scales.

So while scales only are an overspecialisation, the overall skill set you practice with them is quite relevant. It is also super-relevant to develop a feel of how intervals map to patterns, and that's something that you need to develop as well.

I've been meddling with CBA for about 15 years and I know that if I'd like to seriously advance, I'd need to do scale and chord work much more than I actually do. I rather work less efficiently on music itself. I doubt that this is more pleasant to the neighbors: a bad scale is a bad scale. It doesn't carry meaning and expectations. A bad song poisons your enjoyment of the song.

 

[Javthedog]

FWIW play major scales and their minors and start on different rows.....eg C on 1st row and C on 4th......G on 2nd and 5th.......2 octaves and use a metronome. Have fun!

 

[Ffingers]

Raw beginner writing this - when tackling a piece of music I find that first running a few scales in the key in which it is written helps with locating the appropriate buttons.
It seems to create a subconcious map in my head and makes incidentals stand out as deviations from that pattern.
I'm not an aspiring public performer but learning purely for my own entertainment and anything that makes life easier helps.
My teacher comments on the fluidity of my playing as if it is not usual, so there may be some benefit from that aspect, too.

 

[JerryPH]

As noted elsewhere, I started learning CBA on my own. I dutifully started playing my scales as suggested in many books and websites. But an interesting question popped up: If I only ever learn the scales in simple up-and-down-style, as suggested in most resources, will any of it ever translate to playing actual music?

It is going to depend on the music, but anywhere you see a song with 2 or more notes that are side by side, that’s a portion of a scale, so for me, scales and arpeggios are the building blocks of music. I near cannot find a piece of music that doesn’t use those skills.

Are scales all you need? No, but it’s a good start.
The Hanon exercises are highly recommended for dexterity.

 

[Snoopz]

I did find interesting exercises for scales from Shelia Lee: https://shelialee.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/pick-one-scale-and-master-it.pdf

She suggests playing scales not only note for note but using different interval jumps. I think I’ll have a look at those when I have the pure scales down pat.

The Hanon exercises are highly recommended for dexterity.

I do have a bookmark for the Hanon exercises and plan to play those, too.

 

[JerryPH]

I once heard Cory Pesaturo say that he wishes that he had started Hanon earlier, but not just in one key, but all keys… that’s not a bad idea!

 

[Ffingers]

On CBA there are, in effect, only three fingering patterns for all musical keys.
With the extra rows on 4, 5 & 6 row keyboards the same 3 patterns can be utilised at will to suit the particular piece of music being played.

 

[Javthedog]

On CBA there are, in effect, only three fingering patterns for all musical keys.
With the extra rows on 4, 5 & 6 row keyboards the same 3 patterns can be utilised at will to suit the particular piece of music being played.

Sure - but - and - depending on the sequence of notes, (C griff here!) you may find it more convenient/easy/whatever to go different ways......So, take the sequence D G A B G (possibly as in Down in the Valley). Start on D row3, G row2, A row1, B row3, G row2......or.... D row3, G row5, A row4, B row, G row 5. My hand prefers the second route. Other tunes in G, I may play the 'other' way.
This is why I think it's important to play scales starting from different rows and go different ways and although, yes, you only 'need' 3 scale patterns, in practice I've found (with very little experience) most of the pieces I look at need quite a lot of thought re the most convenient fingering. Keep noodlin'!

 

[nou]

The same question popped in my mind when I was just starting learning. This was on a Wicki-Hayden concertina, where practicing (major and minor) scales have absolutely no sense at all. You learn the shape of the scale instantly and, what is more important, you never, ever use scale fingerings in real life pieces of music. Even for runs, you simply won't have those exact fingers available, unless you play very staccato, because on a Hayden your fingers have to cross all the time.

On CBA scales have a little more sense, since their shapes are not contiguous and you have to learn where the scale steps are, but overall, practicing scales on isomorphic instrument is a relic from piano teaching approach, where knowing your scales is crucial (and even on a piano you throw your scale fingerings out the window as soon as you play your first triad!). What really matters though, are chords, arpeggios and bridging those chords, because this is how music is structured. Not mindlessly run up and down the scale that leads to "this finger on this step" bad habit.

So my go-to warmup excercise is playing triads on every step in succession, in various different configurations: upward arpeggios up the scale, downward arpeggios down the scale, downward arpeggios up the scale etc., with different arpeggio patterns/rhythms as well. Then do the same but not on the scales, but on common chord progressions - play arpeggios on those steps only, but also bridge those steps with runs. You want your fingers to follow transitions smoothly. You will immediately see, that first or last note of an arpeggio often require you to substitute the default finger in preparation for what's coming next, or that the entire first repetition of an arpeggio demands entirely different fingering. Also do parallel interval ladders, where you will have to constantly deviate from default scale fingerings. Instead of the rigid "this finger on this step" nonsense, this approach teaches finger "collision avoidance" intuition. It also teaches you real musical context, and you then actually get to use those well trained "syllables" in real life music pieces.

 

[dak]

On CBA scales have a little more sense, since their shapes are not contiguous and you have to learn where the scale steps are, but overall, practicing scales on isomorphic instrument is a relic from piano teaching approach, where knowing your scales is crucial

Uh, practising scales is certainly different but by no means it is obsolete. I am somewhat puzzled by the implicit statement that on a CBA one does not need to know one's scales. That is more relevant than ever. Indeed, if you are going to work with score sheets, knowing them will be more relevant than with a piano accordion where white and black keys have a comparatively direct relation to the notation.

 

[Random Johnny]

Where can one find these Hanon exercises for CBA?

 

[nou]

Uh, practising scales is certainly different but by no means it is obsolete. I am somewhat puzzled by the implicit statement that on a CBA one does not need to know one's scales. That is more relevant than ever. Indeed, if you are going to work with score sheets, knowing them will be more relevant than with a piano accordion where white and black keys have a comparatively direct relation to the notation.

It's good then, that I don't use standard notation. But in all seriousness, when you learn to play on any isomorphic layout without the prior knowledge of the piano, your whole approach to music playing and reading is fundamentally different. It's deeply geometric in nature. And I never wrote "no reason to know your scales". Because the scales are all the same, you know them very soon on the learnign curve and there is no more reason to practice them. Think of it as simply progressing faster, than on a piano. Look at the Hayden layout - there is no reason at all to practice your scales (major and minor only, chromatic or klezmer are another story) more than a couple of first days, when you're more so getting used to the ergonomics of the instrument, than learning the scales.

If you are also using one of the chromatic notation systems, the whole sight-to-sound pathway also differs from the "standard ways of things".

 

[dak]

Because the scales are all the same, you know them very soon on the learnign curve and there is no more reason to practice them.

Sorry, but I see that we are absolutely not on the same page here. You appear to suggest that practising scales is something that you are done with at some point of time. That just isn't the case: professional musicians will typically spend time each day doing scales for the length of their career, pretty much independent of instrument. It is not a matter of intellectually understanding scales but of keeping motor skills from being "optimized" into becoming sloppy.

 

[Snoopz]

Where can one find these Hanon exercises for CBA?

Well, Hanon exercises were written for piano originally and can be found in standard notation, for example here. You can also buy them as physical books, although I don’t see the benefit.

 

[nou]

Sorry, but I see that we are absolutely not on the same page here. You appear to suggest that practising scales is something that you are done with at some point of time. That just isn't the case: professional musicians will typically spend time each day doing scales for the length of their career, pretty much independent of instrument. It is not a matter of intellectually understanding scales but of keeping motor skills from being "optimized" into becoming sloppy.

Re-read my first post in this thread. I'm all in for practicing fingerings, muscle memory and all that, just not on "letter by letter" basis, but on "syllable by syllable" basis. The OP question is a very important one, and the bottom line is "how is the music structured". And apart from (nomen omen) A.Part's tintinnabuli, you usually don't hear too long scale runs in real life melodies. You usually encounter chord arpeggios and short melodic bridges. So why practice dry scales, when you can practice more complex elements of the muscial language on top of the scales? Go and try my method - you're still fingering everything within scales, but you do so in a multi-layered way instead of a simple up and down run.

Now about the "independent of the instrument". There are only three acoustic instruments with an isomorphic "keyboard" I know of, that are not (entirely) a novelty - CBA, a guitar with a regular tuning, and Hayden duet concertina. Apart from those, there are also DIY Janko pianos and MIDI things like Linnstrument, Chromatone or Lumatone... All other instruments require learning and practicing multiple patterns to play the same scale in different keys. It is not a matter of "intelectually understanding scales", but a matter of practice efficiency. A simplest example there is - mounting a Janko adapter on your everyday acoustic/digital piano literally cuts your scales practice time needed to "not go sloppy" by a factor of exactly 12.

 

[saundersbp]

On CBA scales have a little more sense, since their shapes are not contiguous and you have to learn where the scale steps are, but overall, practicing scales on isomorphic instrument is a relic from piano teaching approach, where knowing your scales is crucial (and even on a piano you throw your scale fingerings out the window as soon as you play your first triad!). What really matters though, are chords, arpeggios and bridging those chords, because this is how music is structured. Not mindlessly run up and down the scale that leads to "this finger on this step" bad habit.

I agree with you here completely and in subsequent postings. Do you play any Arvo Part on the accordion btw?

 

[nou]

Do you play any Arvo Part on the accordion btw?

No, just Alina on a piano and Spiegel im Spiegel for piano and concertina. Nothing recording worthy yet though, as I only recently started learning on a Janko.

 

[Random Johnny]

Well, Hanon exercises were written for piano originally and can be found in standard notation, for example here. You can also buy them as physical books, although I don’t see the benefit.

 

[debra]

Olá amigo! Se você joga no sistema C-Griff, Hanon transcrito por Luigi Orestes Anzaghi é o melhor! Você sabe?

Please do not translate English-speaking posts into a less-known language on this forum and also try to translate what you want to say into English. The forum does not provide automatic translation.