Mics for accordion

[Waldo]

Microphones. A large subject without much comment [that I could find with the search engine]. So I'm starting one here.
I want to mic my box. I've done a lot of research, and as is normal for me, I want to make "it" better, whatever "it" may be. To that end I've come up with some ideas I'd like to float. Feel free to call me an idiot, I'm here to learn.
First the idea, then the justification.
Now, following is the "deluxe" version of the idea, tho any box could be converted. A test could be performed on a donor box before going this far, but, here's the plan:
Have a left side sound box constructed that is "empty". That is, no reeds or blocks, no air holes in the soundboard, no stradella machine, no pallets, no bass buttons and no button holes. In short, a sealed bass end with only the strap & bellows vent remaining.
Next, mount "stalk type" microphones [I couldn't attach a pic, Google "Meyers Grip Plus Deluxe" to view] to the former sound board with the mics positioned so as not to strike the treble reeds in the closed position, yet extend into the bellows as far as practicable. Wiring would pass thru the soundboard [air tight] into the stradella area. The tone and volume controls as well as the battery and patch cord socket would mount here. The controls could be positioned where the bass buttons formerly resided, giving easy access/control while playing. The new "amplified" end piece would be exchangable with the original "acoustic" end piece in just a few minutes without upsetting the box in any way.

Justification:
1) No change to the outward appearance of the instrument save for the cord attachment.
2) Internal mics. No damage concerns from handling
3) Internal mics. No feedback or room noise pick-up.
4) Control knob access ease, even while playing. Both volume and tone
5) Significant reduction in weight! Especially where it counts.

Potential problems and counter arguments:
1) Volume changes as the bellows expand and contract due to the changing distance from the treble reeds. I'd argue that the "trash can effect" would negate this. By "tce", I mean how sound will travel down a tube [the bellows"], without dissipating as it does when unconfined [see; Trombone]. The test would prove this out.
2) Lack of a bass side. Amplification usually becomes necessary when playing in a "band" situation, particularly when said band is not acoustic. Therefore one could reasonably expect there to be a bass guitar present. Playing our left hand bass over an electric bass guitar would only serve to confuse the listener, therefore, no accordion bass. Side benefit; lighter weight on the most aggressively moved component of the accordion with greater control and less fatigue.
3) Distortion of the bellows pin holes over time with resultant loose pins. They make replacement pins with different outside dimensions for this reason.
4) The possible difference in tone from in to out. My "mind jury" is still out on this one. The reed blocks may act as a cossoto chamber for the inner reeds. I'm thinking this will not happen, or there would be a difference betwen push and pull on a normal box.

Obviously, the modus here is to electrify. When an accoustic instrument is electrified, the now enhanced volume easily covers the acoustic signature of the instrument. However, an accordion has such a loud voice that the accoustic voice may be detectable under the electrified voice, especially on the quiter passages. Now, this shouldn't be a concern, unless utilizing effects pedels, which is what I want to do. The two sounds over each other could be, well.....bad.
So, part of my "plan" is to also fab up a treble side cover that is solid and insulated, with vent holes top and bottom to allow the air to move, but muffling the voice as much as possible. I know, I know, why not just buy a Roland? I prefer the accoustic sound, real bellows feel and the idea of one accordion, one feel. Plus, where's the fun in that?

Bring on the comments!
Waldo

 

[JerryPH]

There indeed are a LOT of ways to do this and on top of it it doesnt need to be in the thousands of dollars. When the electret mics in my hohner died, I went through this study myself in several ways and in the end decided on a method that was quite affordable, easy and most importantly, did NOT change the factory appearance of my Morino VI N at all. I also developed the beginning thoughts on how to build the ultimate mic setup for less than half of what the very best known mic setup on the market was. You can read about my thoughts and what I ended up doing HERE.

In the end, your needs, budget, DIY skill and knowledge will decide for you, like it did for me. .

In the process I learned a good bit and still continue to learn and one day will try to make my own ultimate sound setup, but I think it will be a 48V phantom powered setup plugged in to a good quality mixer because it offers so many advantages like no need to change batteries, ever, best quality sound and much higher quality tonal control.

Weight here means nothing, with the lightest and heaviest systems imaginable being less than half an ounce apart at most.

Oh, and yes, ones eyes do go all round and wide when you realise the advantages of recording with a Roland. Ultimate control, ZERO feedback 100% of the time and NO need to wear headphones when recording a secondary track while listening to the primary track sounds over the speakers, and then there are the dozens of different sounding accordions one has at your fingertips, of course.

 

[debra]

Using mics on the inside of the box (where the bellows are positioned) has been used a lot for bass accordions. I have yet to see one where the sound that is produced is even remotely similar to the natural sound of the box on the outside.
The best systems for adding mics all have the mics on the outside, sometimes still invisible under the grille (invisible to the audience), sometimes just outside of the grille (and thus visible).
The further the mics are from the grille on the outside the more even the sound pickup is. There is a system promoted by Pigini with mics under the grille, using 10 mics on the keyboard side to get even pickup. I use the much simpler Microvox 420system on the outside. I keep the mics about 1 inch from the grille (with a bracket) and with 4 mics (in one straight bar) I get pretty even sound pickup and can amplify the sound a lot before there is any danger of a feedback loop.

 

[JerryPH]

I'll have to make a recording of the Morino one day... it's pretty good now. Advantages to an internal system are one mic for left and right hands, much lower chances of feedback and much lower mechanical sounds captured.

Bad part is, if done badly, chances of air leaks increase, chances of passing sympathetic accordion harmonic vibrations to the mic increase and If using a low quality mic, one side volume drops as you pull the bellows farther apart.

The way its done on mine is a good quality mic (Shure SM58 clone capsule), set in a rubber damper and as best that I can measure, there is a 2db difference in volume between fully closed and fully open. Very little mechanical sound is heard and with minor adjustments on the mixer it sounds very natural, but that is all a matter more related to speaker choice/quality more than anything else.

As far as state if the art external mics are concerned, 1-2 mics do cause uneven volumes, and the trend is to use smaller and more mics inside, as demonstrated by HATools in moving from 3 mics on the bass to 8 for more eveness for Free Bass instruments, and 10 mics on the right hand. These mics are inherently very cheap, so instead of 10 mins on the right hand, why not 15... 20 ... Or even 30 and 15 on the lefr hand? And since we are on the topic, why use 9 volt batteries that die out? Why not use the 48 volts that most good mixers provide as a 100% more reliable means of power?

Just something to think about.

 

[Howie]

Taking into account that what people are aiming for here is amplification for performance - what about mics for recording accordion?

Are internal mics still preferred for studio work? I'm interested in this particularly in regard to reducing mechanical noise. I had imagined that a mic inside the accordion would pick up more mechanical noise, not less, but I don't know. I've only used external condenser mics on stands - obviously not good for live work, but they capture the accordion sound very nicely.

Whoever records Dan Newton's playing does a great job, possibly the nicest accordion recordings I've heard for balance of sound - although, Dan often has a noticeable tapping/clicking from his left playing. Which I've heard on his live work too, not just studio.

 

[JerryPH]

Ok... IF your goal is for recording the accordion and capturing THE most original and BEST sound, external mics are the way to go, but there are a few catches:

1. You need a minimum of 2 quality mics. $500-$750US for each is just midrange quality. Studios can pay as much as $5000 or more for a single quality mic!

2. More important than the mics is the room where you are recording. It has to be both acoustically and electrically "perfect" in the sense that no external sounds enter and it is designed to absorb ALL reflected sounds. Budgeting $1000US for this is low-mid range. Some studios spend $10,000 per room for this.

3. Mid-level pro studio sound recording and editing equipment... low end starts at $1000US and can easily go 10 times or even 100 times that amount without even trying hard. A basic DAW and software can go over $1500US for home use without trying, as an added cost.

4. Knowledge. This more than anything else separates the men from the boys. I am not even speaking about being to play the accordion well, but how to use all that equipment and software for going from good to incredible soundtracks. This is an art to itself!

The real question should be... what us your budget, what are your ultimate goals and where are you in the knowledge curve to do this by yourself?

For example, last week I spent 2 hours photographing a rock group in a 2.5 million dollar studio, and the manager was complaining that they were short another 2 million to be close to what they wanted... lol

They charge well known bands $750/hour for the raw, untouched audio, but if you are a young and coming band, they let you have your first 4 hours for $400 and will even help you master your audio for 2 hours, this is a bargain considering the equipment and people there, but this doesn't get you too far. It is easy to spend 8 hours mastering a single song!

No matter what your budget is ($2 or $20million), there is a way to spend it on methods to record an accordion. .

Right now, I am making a small video that covers the basics of capturing accordion audio from the $0 to $4000 range for HOME recording, but concentrating on tips that get you as good a recording as you can get for minimal investment. If I don't get called in to do more 7-day work weeks, I should have something to offer in 2 weekends, but without kidding... this is a topic that several books could be written about and still not cover everything!

 

[Howie]

Thanks Jerry. Your articles on the DIY internal mics were interesting and I look forward to the video on home recording.

My interest is mostly home recording to review my practice, or maybe one day I will inflict my efforts on youtube, but being a bit of an audio nut I'd like the quality to be "as good as I can afford". I know all about the money pit of audio - I have good hi-fi stuff, but not the best, as we know the law of diminishing returns means we can get pretty good quality before the next few percent costs double or ten times the price.

Your second point about the room being most important is my experience too. My mics aren't likely to be found in a $2M studio - but for what I can afford they give a pretty faithful result of what the accordion sounds like in the room. A friend is going through the sound treatment journey at the moment for his studio. I probably can't justify that. Or should I say, my wife won't accept my justifications

I have a long history of wrangling with trying to get a good mix, I strongly believe that a good engineer and a good desk guy are at least 50% of a good recording result. I'm an amateur but if I could play like a pro I would rely on the pros to record me.

It would be interesting to know, dollar for dollar, what gives the better result - internal mics or externals. Assuming a normal person's budget, if one doesn't have a proper studio (with all that entails vis sound treatment) perhaps internals are a better choice. Part of the reason I use condensers is that I record other acoustic instruments.

 

[debra]

For home recording (and dollar for dollar) external mics are always by far the best option (unless maybe if you are in a very noisy environment (like a lower floor apartment on a busy avenue in Manhattan).

Take <YOUTUBE id=usx_47Xjgb8 url=></YOUTUBE> is me solo, again in my living room, recorded using the H2.

The room you hear (reverb) is all computer-generated. Finding a room with outstanding acoustics just by itself can be very hard. Adding the room through the computer is so much easier...

 

[JerryPH]

1 - My interest is mostly home recording to review my practice, or maybe one day I will inflict my efforts on youtube, but being a bit of an audio nut Id like the quality to be as good as I can afford.

2 - I know all about the money pit of audio - I have good hi-fi stuff, but not the best, as we know the law of diminishing returns means we can get pretty good quality before the next few percent costs double or ten times the price.

3 - Your second point about the room being most important is my experience too. My mics arent likely to be found in a $2M studio - but for what I can afford they give a pretty faithful result of what the accordion sounds like in the room. A friend is going through the sound treatment journey at the moment for his studio. I probably cant justify that. Or should I say, my wife wont accept my justifications

4 - I have a long history of wrangling with trying to get a good mix, I strongly believe that a good engineer and a good desk guy are at least 50% of a good recording result. Im an amateur but if I could play like a pro I would rely on the pros to record me.

5 - It would be interesting to know, dollar for dollar, what gives the better result - internal mics or externals. Assuming a normal persons budget, if one doesnt have a proper studio (with all that entails vis sound treatment) perhaps internals are a better choice. Part of the reason I use condensers is that I record other acoustic instruments.

1 - Your goals are very attainable and you should be able to get a more than decent recording with affordable/minimal amounts of money. At the bottom end of the scale, if going external mics, that is where one needs to spend the most and then having a computer and audio software to capture it is crucial. I started by recording to a cassette tape, then to a reel-2-reel and then to a 4-track setup that I still even have today, but it certainly is hard to beat the most basic of computers and some free audio software with a pair of good mics.

For example, one could likely easily duplicate Pauls really good results with nothing more than a pair of Shure SM58 (or like me, Shure SM59 clones) for anywhere from $40 to $200, not including the cost of the computer (which most of us already have) and software (which is available for free or like in the case of Reaper, $60US for personal use and is pro level quality in terms of feature richness). The only additional thing needed is a way to input, which on some sound cards have a 2-channel line input on the computer (which is free) or can use an audio adapter (which is $15 and up, your budget comes in to play here).

2 - Yes, there comes a point that when adding another $500 to the pile isnt something that you can hear until you add another $1000 on top for a small increase. That happens with many things.

3 - Like anything, you can do a little (rearranging the furniture), adding a few home made sound absorbing panels or go all out and make a true sound room. Again most of us here can give good results with minimal investment as long as the room is quiet and perhaps maybe the addition of a blanket or 2 on the wall(s).

4 - Time, patience, and practice will make things easier there too. The pro results are always stunning, I have seen this first hand, but all my own stuff was always in my home and done by me... but I was lucky to have been able to talk to a couple of really nice sound engineers and they shared a few hints. I am also very fortunately to have a really good mixer and computer equipment and software at my home, and of course, having an entire basement for me is a blessing.

5 - Done right, I would have to say that 90% of all people would not be able to tell the difference for a single accordion. What does make the difference is if you are intending for public performance as well as personal recording. For your needs of personal recording, two external microphones on stands are the best simply because the setup is not tied to one accordion like internal mics would be, and you are less concerned about playing in public on an amplified setup with a group of other musicians. For public performances with other musicians, external mics are the hardest to make work right without capturing the surrounding ambience/noise and are highly more susceptible to feedback in comparison to internal mics.

 

[losthobos]

Nuuksu (another forum member) put me onto JTS 516cx mics.....great...use externally gooseneck on treble and a smaller jts capsule on the bass.....clever thing French seller suggested for the bass capsule was to wrap I little Velcro bracelet and then wrap bracelet round bottom of bass side strap....discreet, functional and efficient....both mics connect to 9v PSU which has independent volume controls for left and right.....thanks nuuksu

 

[JEBrown]

I recently got mics attached to my accordion. I play in a band where every instrument is amplified, and playing with an external fixed mic just wasnt working for me. I spoke to a specialist shop and they recommended these AKG C516 ML mics http://www.akg.com/pro/p/c516ml We talked about the options of attaching internally or externally, and their experience was that external mics give the most even sound. They also strongly suggested screwing the attachment plates to the instrument rather than using the supplier adhesive tape (I couldnt face doing this myself so they also did the drilling and screwing required). The mics and the power supply / mixer are very easy to use and give (as far as I can tell) excellent quality. Of course if not changing the outer appearance of your box is a requirement then this arrangement wont work for you.

I also recently did some recordings for some students as part of their final year project. They experimented with various options and fancy mics, but ended up choosing two fixed mics placed as close to the box as we could manage without me bumping them on the bellows. As others have said, the room you record in seems to be a very important factor, and they had access to a soundproofed booth with sound absorbing material on the walls. They seemed very happy with the outcome (and did their teacher). I hated it, as it meant I heard every little error I made...

 

[debra]

...
As others have said, the room you record in seems to be a very important factor, and they had access to a soundproofed booth with sound absorbing material on the walls. They seemed very happy with the outcome (and did their teacher). I hated it, as it meant I heard every little error I made...

The soundproofed booth exists so that after recording you can add any acoustic room behavior you want by reverb and/or other effects afterwards. It is perfectly normal to hate the outcome from the pure recording.

 

[JerryPH]

I personally add a good amount of EQing and reverb or echo, I feel it adds a nice richness to the end product. Just my style, not mandatory.

 

[Waldo]

JEB,
Do you play the bass side while playing with the band?

 

[losthobos]

Depends on the band, depends on the song....but I prefer not to....having a band take care of rhythm is a joy to free the right hand to swing....

 

[JEBrown]

The soundproofed booth exists so that after recording you can add any acoustic room behavior you want by reverb and/or other effects afterwards. It is perfectly normal to hate the outcome from the pure recording.

Im familiar with recording techniques. I still hated the recording even after adding back in the reverb as it forced me to acknowledge my errors...

 

[JEBrown]

JEB,
Do you play the bass side while playing with the band?

Usually, but not always. The number of players varies - sometimes one guitarist, sometimes two; sometimes one fiddler, sometimes two or a penny whistle. If theres only one guitarist I play bass, if only one fiddle Ill play melody. If there are two fiddlers I might only play bass and join in the the melody on repeats, or play a counter melody. If everyone is there Ill go and have a beer while they play.

 

[JerryPH]

Im familiar with recording techniques. I still hated the recording even after adding back in the reverb as it forced me to acknowledge my errors...

Thats the nice thing about recordings... playing live, what comes out is what comes out, but in a room by yourself, you can redo all or a part of it over and over again until it is where you want it to be, or to a place that you can accept it as it is. The one thing you dont have to do is accept it in a state where you are not happy with the recording.

 

[JEBrown]

The one thing you dont have to do is accept it in a state where you are not happy with the recording.

Unfortunately in this case the recording wasnt for me - it was for the students - and the students had only limited time to do more takes / edit the recording. They just needed something to show their technical abilities rather than my skills. And to be honest I think I had been warming up / practicing so much in advance that I had got into that state of over-practice where my fingers just didnt work properly any more (or perhaps Im just not as good as I think I am...).