Midi control on two fr4x accordions

[zeljko.djakic]

I'm thinking, could you connect two Roland fr4x harmonicas with a midi remote so that I can control the transposer on my and the other harmonica with my own, so that, for example, it plays a third for me, but if I'm in -1 F flat major, it should also be on the second one so that we don't shout at each other

 

[Ventura]

simply connect any midi cable from your FR4 to ANY midi device
then transpose and play and you will find out if the output MIDI
stream is also transposed

it probably is

this should be very simple to test using any keyboard like
an old casio with speakers

 

[dak]

simply connect any midi cable from your FR4 to ANY midi device
then transpose and play and you will find out if the output MIDI
stream is also transposed

it probably is

this should be very simple to test using any keyboard like
an old casio with speakers

I think the idea was to have two people playing and one person controlling the transposition on both instruments.

With the FR-1 I can certify that of course transposition is reflected in the MIDI. Indeed, when using organ mode, the transposition is reflected twice in the MIDI, making it comparatively useless and not matching the bass side.

The transposition change itself does not appear on MIDI. My guess would be that if you explicitly save the settings that the transposition would be among them. But other than that, you just have the effect of the transposition in the MIDI, not the transposition as separate information. I could check, but then there certainly will be people with much more relevant instruments than my first-generation Roland.

 

[zeljko.djakic]

right, that idea is that two people play two roland fr4x harmonicas and one controls the transposer on both

 

[Ventura]

so you want fr4 #1 to "press the buttons for transposition" on FR4 #2

?

why not reach over and press them with your fingers ?

why does the person playing the second roland not press them ?

is this for some lightning performance duet where there is simply
no time to co-ordinate transposition movements ?

if so, why not just learn how to transpose naturally for this performance ?

(i always transpose naturally, never use artificial means on my Rolands
or keyboards, so i do not understand what you are trying to accomplish)

and the person playing FR4 #2.. many people cannot hear the wrong
pitch coming from their keys without getting messed up

 

[zeljko.djakic]

Because it's easier to sing a song in semitones, and it's easier to transpose a song to play a whole tone on a fr4x with a midi remote.

 

[Airy]

In the MIDI implementation chart of the FR4x I don't see any mention of "MIDI transpose". And when I tried the transpose shortcut (shift key + right/left arrow key) no MIDI commands were sent to my computer. I didn't dive deeper but at first sight the FR4x doesn't seem to send transpose commands through the wire.

These workarounds come to my mind:

- setup 12 diffferent soundsets on the FR4x - each with its own semitone tuning and the same sets on both accordions. I guess that switching soundsets remotely should be possible (but I did not test it!!!)

- send MIDI from FR4x to external device (computer or smartphone/tablet or hardware box) with local sounds deactivated, transpose in the external device and send back to the sound engine in your accordion. Do the same for the second accordion. And then somehow make the two external devices talk to each other so that they synchronize their transpose offset.

 

[Ventura]

would any MIDI controller "send" a transpose command out ?
what would it be sending it to that would be able to use such information ?
there is nothing to transpose in a sound engine following MIDI protocol , which
is typically what Controllers 'talk to"

if sending to a sequencer, the controller transposes itself, so the note stream
is still just notes, the sequencer needs no transpose embedded controller code
for the playback

since the controller would transpose itself, it follows there would be
no rationale to have anything further in the MIDI protocol, as every note then sent
out would be transposed, and any sound device will play the note requested
(it just doesn't matter to a sound engine what key you are in or if you are transposing)

i think

 

[Airy]

would any MIDI controller "send" a transpose command out ?
what would it be sending it to that would be able to use such information ?
there is nothing to transpose in a sound engine following MIDI protocol , which
is typically what Controllers 'talk to"

if sending to a sequencer, the controller transposes itself, so the note stream
is still just notes, the sequencer needs no transpose embedded controller code
for the playback

since the controller would transpose itself, it follows there would be
no rationale to have anything further in the MIDI protocol, as every note then sent
out would be transposed, and any sound device will play the note requested
(it just doesn't matter to a sound engine what key you are in or if you are transposing)

i think

Ventura, I agree with your argumentation.

But (a) this doesn’t mean it cannot be done, so why not check? Engineers can use MIDI‘s non registered parameters to do all kind of things if they find it usefull. Like I was reading in another forum that you can remotely control the transpose function of a Roland XP-50 by sending ”cc101 = 0, cc100 = 2, cc6 = 64”. Not to speak of sysex to sort of re-program your target.

And (b): What if you play along to a sequencer with a pre-programmed backing track and need to transpose the key on the fly? Probably the sequencer has an easy accessible button for that and maybe even a dedicated foot controller. But wouldn’t it be nice to press some transpose buttons on the accordion and the backing track would follow?

(C) There are MIDI plugins and even hardware boxes which can transpose on the fly. And somehow you need to tell them the transpose offset. So why not reserve a MIDI controller for that because they are already fed by a MIDI controller anyhow.

Not arguing only discussing

 

[dak]

But (a) this doesn’t mean it cannot be done, so why not check? Engineers can use MIDI‘s non registered parameters to do all kind of things if they find it usefull. Like I was reading in another forum that you can remotely control the transpose function of a Roland XP-50 by sending ”cc101 = 0, cc100 = 2, cc6 = 64”. Not to speak of sysex to sort of re-program your target.

Solton MS40 (and its family) has a menu option to send and accept keypresses on its vast number of control buttons: that way you can record sequences for remote control. I think it would be comparatively easy to keep two separate such controllers in sync with regard to their transposition settings.

I used that ability for saving all internal patterns automatically. But you need support in the device in question, both for sending such controls and for receiving them. Dumping all of the current settings would likely also work, but it might transfer more than you want.

 

[Ventura]

Ventura, I agree with your argumentation.

But (a) this doesn’t mean it cannot be done

(C) There are MIDI plugins and even hardware boxes which can transpose on the fly. And somehow you need to tell them the transpose offset. So why not reserve a MIDI controller for that because they are already fed by a MIDI controller anyhow.

so there is maybe wiggle room in the MIDI controls you can send that might be
repurposed on the other end ? somehow ?

cool

so my old AKAI mx73 has like 8 buttons 8 footswitches even some sliders that
you can assign any MIDI control to for any reason you can come up with, but
i never imagined tricking something on the other end of the command to do
something else somehow

seem like a fun thing to explore, though i am mainly just glad
i can transpose pretty much everything i need to on the fly in my fingers
XD

 

[Airy]

[…] though i am mainly just glad
i can transpose pretty much everything i need to on the fly in my fingers
XD

yeah, that‘s a gift! And/or probably hard training.

OFFTOPIC:
But then modern world is mostly about automation: open garage door when car is coming, turn hallway lights on, deactivate burgler alarm and have switched on the radiator / air conditioner already one hour before.

 

[EuroFolker]

Ventura said:
"
why not reach over and press them with your fingers ?

why does the person playing the second roland not press them ?

is this for some lightning performance duet where there is simply
no time to co-ordinate transposition movements ?"

Based on the location of the OP... the type of music I *assume* they play on the two Rolands is as dynamic, intense, and even violent, as a medieval sword fight... there is no time for anything but to pay close attention to what the enemy (in this case, the audience) is doing.

Just kidding, haha.... but yes Balkan music is fast action, I doubt the person playing the second Roland would have time to press them.