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MMM design advice?

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Matt Butcher

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I wondered if anyone could help with this - it may not come to anything. Let's say someone in the UK wanted to have a new 120 bass C system CBA made, and on the right hand to have just 3 middle reeds, musette tuned, a bit above A=440. Let's say they were thinking about using a respected Italian maker but not perhaps one of the biggest/most expensive names.

(A first question might be why go the expense, why not get something second hand. A second question might be with exchange rates as they are why would any British person be mad enough to do this, why not find a suitable box already in the UK and have it adapted, which I am thinking might be the way to go, but anyway.)

But the question I wanted to ask here is, with the spec above are there any options or modifications on the right hand that would affect the sound, that could be built into the design? Thank you.
 
Non other than you'd really regret NO Bassoon...if it's really MMM your after speak with Nigel at FairDeal Accordions...pretty sure he had a modded MMM Borsini CBA a while back....told me it was the holy grail....
 
Up the M5; off at the back of Frankly services...
 
:-) :-) I know where West Heath is!

And I've spent an hour or two waiting in the car outside while others try the stock...
 
It was more reminisce ... less directions.. but not everyone would have considered the 'cheat' off at Frankley services... :)
 
I agree that does show very impressive local knowledge ... I have never been sure if that short cut was "allowed" but then again they don't stop you ...

I met a friend for coffee the other day to discuss accordion teachers and ended up wandering around tunnels under the QE hospital... (she's going to try Zivorad Nikolic)




Any metal plates or anything that would make the right hand side sound different?
 
I feel that a 3 voice Musette sounds best when there are no registers . I have several antique models like this, one is going well enough to notice that it is brighter ,more Musette, than a very similar model with additional Basson and register sliders.

I also get the impression that the modern instrument with the register sliders sandwiched in the foundation plate makes for a somewhat muted effect and the old single layer foundation plate gives clearer ,more direct, sound.

I played a modern 3 voice musette ( sans registers) Fratelli Crosio Model Retro and it blew my socks off... I should have bought it but it was in 443hz. Perhaps it was the pitch and the lack of a Basson voice... or more likely the glittery twinkle black and while Pearly King look that put me off.
 
Geoff, those are exactly the kind of sounds I'm thinking of and thanks for the comments which are useful. The brilliant and saturated sounds of those old instruments or of a modern day Fratelli Crosio, Stocco or Bymarco - sharp tuning and sparkles go with the territory. A one trick pony for sure but "ponyism" is ok.

My old La Vera box (not sure of the date but oldish) has an aluminium plate over the grille. It looks nice and shiny but does it have any effect on the sound do you think? Or anything else to do with the grille, or am I just getting fanciful now?
 
One trick pony is a good idea I agree,... especially if buying second hand. It will really deliver of THE sound... though it is nice to be able to change the sound... but cant we have another box to provide a change. I often find it depends on my mood, or my state of health, that some days I just cannot bear the 3 voice musette and either choose my milder tuned model or utilise the basson and flute only.

I have experimented with Grille on / Grille off and usually I cannot detect any aprieciable difference on my instruments. Being a wee bit deaf in my right ear, and all my current accordeons having 5 voice Basses, I am sometimes looking to increase the volume of the melody side.

Have you looked at the website of Georges Pellegrini at http://www.mon-accordeon.com ? He has some nice instruments for sale including a Fratelli Crosio 3 voice musette retro. Lots of very usefull info on his site too....
 
That's a great website and a lovely box too - it brings me up against the reality of pricing, but whether or not anything ever comes of it, thanks for the ideas which really clarified what I was thinking about.

Now where's that thread about flat keyboards...
 
Hi Matt,

MMM is a French institution, and they still make them in reasonable quantity there. The Italians also make small 3 voice musette CBAs, and they are played by some professionals. The Italian models available in the UK with MMM almost invariably also have a bassoon reed, as has been pointed out.

The notion of ordering one from England is interesting, but personally speaking I'd never buy another accordion without playing it first. I've known people go into a store and try a demo box out. They then decide to order an identical? new instrument. Then when it arrives they discover that it doesn't sound like the one they tried out originally!

I've had a 3 voice Cavagnolo MMM for about 30 years. It has two coupler settings. Single flute or three voice musette, and that's it. I bought it brand new for £1665, when I should have gone for a Gus Viseur swing tuned model for the same price. It looked identical but sounded and played a thousand times better. The Gus Viseur box also did not have bassoon reeds, but having MMM flute reeds, gave you the option to have straight flute, americain, and swing on the same instrument. It was too subtle for me at that time and I wanted loud. When my fingers have been on steroids and I have the windows taped up to stop them shattering I occasionally get the old Cavagnolo out and blast away on it. It is an absolute dog of an instrument to play with terrible treble button action, and the volume from both the treble and 5 voice bass side is overpowering for playing at home. My daughter has confirmed it is so loud it can be heard several streets away. If I can ever work out how to lower the treble key action, and dry the musette out a bit I might give it more playing time, but for home playing I'm more comfortable with two voice "vibration" tuning.

FWIW we used to be regular users of the Frankley "cheat" when visiting friends in Rubery, but we've now forgotten exactly where it is!
 
Maugien please explain...single flutee, americain and swing.....i was under impression swing tuning was another term for americain...thanks
 
Hi,

In France swing tuning is very dry, typically with sharp flute 0.5 to 1.5 Hz above straight tuned reed.

Americain can be leger or accentue (light or pronounced) between 1.5 to 2.5 Hz

Then there is celeste or moderne 2.5 to 3Hz

Finally there is also musette of varying strengths between 3 and 6 Hz

All of these tunings refer to the two MM reeds in your typical French LMM accordion.

It takes a very good ear to start picking up where one category begins and the other ends.

Opinions vary, but generally speaking the best French americain sound is claimed by Cavagnolo.

Here is swing tuned;-

And here is americain: -

I have picked an example of americain accentue so that the difference is more obvious. To be honest, its just a case of finding the sound that suits you regardless of what it is called. The accordion I was talking about could either be straight flute, swing, or americain, and it needed three MMM reeds to achieve that. Some would call it a waste of a M reed block, but when you heard it sing you could really tell the difference. The americain was used for musette, and the swing for jazzy stuff. No bassoon reed, but Gus Viseur rarely used bassoon at certain points of his career.

Here is also an example of a Cavagnolo digi with very nice americain. Ive always fancied one of these, but am told theyre great when theyre working properly, and you know the next bit!



The accordionist is Jos Barrale, a professional player from Namur, Belgium.
 
Thanks...very nice tone in the Topsy clip...and also the reedless Cavagnolo (cool player too...) I nearly bought a reedless SEM a few years back but dipped out due to 'reliability' issues...missed the reeded Cavagnolo too which I regret...should have made the drive to Manchester...lazy me missed the worm..
Don't suppose you can translate those Hz no's into -+ cents...
Thanks for showing me some smooth players this week...influencial...hope I can absorb...
 
As far as I know there is no reliable conversion from Hz to cents. There are one or two comparison charts online, but these seem to have been devised for tuning steel guitars (country music etc). I could be wrong there of course. I also believe that the conversions vary depending on which octave you are in. One thing that has never really interested me much with the accordion is the technical side. I wish I had the patience to read it all and understand it, but I just want to play and listen to others playing. From what I've read there is a school of thought that accordions sound better if they are tuned slightly sharper than a piano. It's that "slightly sharper" bit that seems to cause us all the problems. Add to that the fact that no two players will produce exactly the same sound from the same box, and it all gets a bit wearing (for me). However that same issue perhaps makes listening more interesting.

As far as cents go, what passes for strong musette in one country would be regarded as too dry in others. 20 cents might be enough for Italians, but here in Scotland you can be looking at 27, which I find far too grating on the old "oreilles".

The French tuning categories are pretty fussy and create many grey areas, and Jos Barille's digi might be "modern" for all I know. You'll often see French accordions on sale described as "americain" (petit vibration). The retailer may be trying to take advantage of the fact that the instrument might actually sound like a cross between one tuning and another. It's not really an exact science and that's why I'd never buy another instrument without trying it out first. My pitch recognition is not the best, and I could not rely on a shop description.

The gypsy player's swing tuned Cavagnolo is about as dry as you'll hear. You (I) can just make out there are two reeds, whereas the second clip is a Borsini with quite pronounced americain tuning.

Believe it or not, swing was actually banned for a while from the bals musette, on the basis that it was not French in origin. Players like Gus Viseur persevered to the point where they actually had competitions in the dance halls between swing and musette bands, with the results being recorded on the good old "clapometers" of the time! Gradually swing became an accepted part of the musette repertoire, so players often chose one style or another and stuck to it. Others could switch from one to the other as the audience demanded, often using two instruments.

The most prominent figure in all of this was Jo Privat, who had been a devout musette player, but altered his sound so that he effectively bridged the gap between the two styles. He eventually devised his own tuning, which was dry with that little bit of "vibration", just to give it a slight edge. Despite being a prolific player of jazz and gypsy influenced material, his playing always reflected the fact that he had learned to play on a diatonic. That old valse musette tempo was always there, and it was that which made him unique. As he got older he tended to get deeper into the gypsy or manouche vein, and I never appreciated his playing as much as I did previously, when he was playing a sort of hybrid style.

Sorry, I know these posts have come light years away from Matt's original subject. I should have maybe started another thread here.
 
Don't worry about that (except that anyone searching later on won't find your information very easily); I think I got what I wanted from the thread and the rest is a bonus.

I nearly thought about making you an offer on that 3 voice Cavognolo, not that I have the money right now, till I read on and you told me how horrible it was!
 
maugein96 said:
As far as I know there is no reliable conversion from Hz to cents.
As I understand it, that is because Hz is a fixed value or initial "starting point" for the overall tune and cents are variations in tuning direction away from that fixed value of different (complimentary) reed set or sets.

One can have an overall tune of an accordion at a starting point to a fixed value (A=440 or A=442 for example). The variation away from that fixed value is measured in cents. A +20 on a A=440 and a +20 on a A=442 are 2 entirely different sounds. On top of that, this variation in cents is not constant from top to bottom but varies by the amount of beats per second or tremolo desired to achieve a specific sound and tremelo. Where one may wish to be 20 cents off at the center point (A=440), the cents number will rise or fall based on the note being played (high or low notes) to achieve that specific desired sound.

To make things more complex this introduces what we enjoy that you often talk about, and that is the different sounds that different countries have and prefer. Where a French Canadian box might be centered around a A=440 and +7 cents, a TexMex box could be A=440 and +15 and an Irish box could be way off at A=442 and 25 cents. Each giving the accordions their own distinctive sound and style.
 
maugein96 said:
As far as I know there is no reliable conversion from Hz to cents.
The conversion can be totally reliable, but it varies according to pitch.

Trying to put it simply, a cent is 1/100 of a semitone, so given that there are twelve semitones in an octave you could say that there are 1200 cents in an octave. This is true whatever octave you are talking about.

1 hertz is one cycle of the musical wave. At A=440 there are 440 cycles (hertz) per second. Go down an octave and you have half as many cycles, 220, so between those two A's there is a difference of 220hz.

Go up an octave and you get to A=880 so you increase the hz by 440 to go up that octave. But both those octaves have 1200 cents. 220 divided by 1200 is obviously different from 440 divided by 1200, but the change happens gradually from note to note, I'm just taking octaves to try to make it obvious. You can't average it across the octave.

Every semitone on the scale consists of a different number of hz to the ones above and below.
 
Yes, I see that! :)
That would be the dry clinical way, but there is always that difference in desired sound. Also, can you imagine trying to document an entire tune to perfection to recreate on a partner accordion? Using Hz in increments of 100 would be hell to both document and try to duplicate.

Instead of having a note A=440 -15 cents, you would document it as something like A=439.85 Hz. This would mean that most tuning tools would become useless (as they use cents to display a tone and how far it is off in cents from the base tone).

Makes more sense (cents) now... lol.
 
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