MMM lack of sweetness?

[Beemer]

For single treble notes, I would like to be able to check the frequency of all three MMM reeds at the same time. Is there audio software that would provide a display of this?
Also, I have noticed when listening to an MMM note I hear two different vibrato beat frequencies. Is this to be expected or is it an unbalanced vibrato tuning?

 

[debra]

Dirk's accordion tuner can measure all three reeds of MMM simultaneously. This helps tuning when the reeds influence each other too much (through "sympathetic vibration") to just measure each reed separately. (This tuner can also measure LM or LMH in one go.) Not cheap though.

 

[Beemer]

Dirk's accordion tuner can measure all three reeds of MMM simultaneously. This helps tuning when the reeds influence each other too much (through "sympathetic vibration") to just measure each reed separately. (This tuner can also measure LM or LMH in one go.) Not cheap though.

Thanks, see also the edit I have just made regarding two beat frequencies

 

[debra]

Thanks, see also the edit I have just made regarding two beat frequencies

When the MMM which has M-, M and M+ has a difference beating between M- and M versus M and M+ it may sound "unbalanced". It is generally recommended to have M- and M+ with the same deviation from M, but when they are different it can also sound "interesting".

 

[wirralaccordion]

When the MMM which has M-, M and M+ has a difference beating between M- and M versus M and M+ it may sound "unbalanced". It is generally recommended to have M- and M+ with the same deviation from M, but when they are different it can also sound "interesting".

Not sure what you mean by unbalanced? My main accordion ( Brandoni Musette ) has been tuned ( at my request ) to M- = -5 cents, M = 0 cents, M+ = +16 cents so that a M-/M selection gives a swing tremolo and a M/M+ selection gives an Italian musette tremolo. Then a M-/M+ selection gives a 21 cents tremolo ( French tremolo? ). I don't know how the M-/M/M+ selection is defined but yes it is unbalanced as if seen on scales with M at the fulcrum but the sound is hardly different to that on the M-/M+ selection.

I have seen LMM and MM defined as musette and LMMM and MMM defined as true musette but I have never understood the "rationale" to this. This assumes that the M- and M+ are both musette tuned, i.e. 15 cents say or more below or above M.

 

[debra]

Not sure what you mean by unbalanced? My main accordion ( Brandoni Musette ) has been tuned ( at my request ) to M- = -5 cents, M = 0 cents, M+ = +16 cents so that a M-/M selection gives a swing tremolo and a M/M+ selection gives an Italian musette tremolo. Then a M-/M+ selection gives a 21 cents tremolo ( French tremolo? ). I don't know how the M-/M/M+ selection is defined but yes it is unbalanced as if seen on scales with M at the fulcrum but the sound is hardly different to that on the M-/M+ selection.

I have seen LMM and MM defined as musette and LMMM and MMM defined as true musette but I have never understood the "rationale" to this. This assumes that the M- and M+ are both musette tuned, i.e. 15 cents say or more below or above M.

With unbalanced I meant that within the MMM you should be able to hear the slow beats of the 5 cents, together with the faster beats of the 16 cents and then the even faster beats of the 21 cents. With a symmetric MMM tuning, say -10/0/+10 you hear the same beating between the -10/0 and 0/+10 and exactly double the speed on the -10/10. It takes a trained ear to notice whether an MMM sound has symmetric tuning around 0 or not.

The terms that are used for different registers are chosen by manufacturers and players and have no real meaning (especially not registers like oboe or violin). Some use the name "celeste" for MM on an accordion that has MMM. The MMM is then often musette and I have seen the term "musette vivace" used for an M-/M+ register (the vivace indicates the tremolo has fast beats).

 

[wirralaccordion]

With unbalanced I meant that within the MMM you should be able to hear the slow beats of the 5 cents, together with the faster beats of the 16 cents and then the even faster beats of the 21 cents. With a symmetric MMM tuning, say -10/0/+10 you hear the same beating between the -10/0 and 0/+10 and exactly double the speed on the -10/10. It takes a trained ear to notice whether an MMM sound has symmetric tuning around 0 or not.

The terms that are used for different registers are chosen by manufacturers and players and have no real meaning (especially not registers like oboe or violin). Some use the name "celeste" for MM on an accordion that has MMM. The MMM is then often musette and I have seen the term "musette vivace" used for an M-/M+ register (the vivace indicates the tremolo has fast beats).

I wasn't thinking of the description "musette" or "true musette" being written on registration switches, rather just these descriptions being in general use. However, as you've mentioned it I don't get it when the M-/M and M/M+ registration switches are described differently when M- and M+ are spread equally on either side of M in a MMM or LMMM accordion as they usually are. e.g. M- = -20 cents, M+ = + 20 cents. The only difference would be the beat frequency would be the same. Is this correct?

 

[debra]

I wasn't thinking of the description "musette" or "true musette" being written on registration switches, rather just these descriptions being in general use. However, as you've mentioned it I don't get it when the M-/M and M/M+ registration switches are described differently when M- and M+ are spread equally on either side of M in a MMM or LMMM accordion as they usually are. e.g. M- = -20 cents, M+ = + 20 cents. The only difference would be the beat frequency would be the same. Is this correct?

Many accordions do not have a register switch for M-/M but have M, M/M+, M-/M/M+ and cassotto accordions often also have just M+ (which makes sense if the accordion is dry-tuned. With symmetric tremolo tuning M/M+ averages out to a bit too high and therefore stands out a bit (when others are playing just M) but M-/M averages out to a bit too low and does not stand out. Furthermore, when you play together with people who have just MM, being M/M+ in 99% of the cases, combining this with playing M-/M will sound bad (too much tremolo).

 

[Ventura]

"the beat frequency would be the same. Is this correct?"

i don't think so, because the frequencies are higher
on the M / M+ side than they are on the
M- / M side, so the beating will be different

being slightly different on these opposite pairs
as the frequencies are higher on one side so the
math is different

rant alert:

also, all this "true musette" stuff kind of gives me a pain,
the discussion starts to remind me of those
ad nauseum ad infinitum hand made reed discussions
that take nothing practical into account

my divergence is based on what works in the professional
performance setting, which is mostly, vastly, 2 reed musette M/M+

the audience are not musette experts or math frequency
measuring critics.. they just know when something sounds
good and if the music is in a style that matches the sound

millions of gigs on LMMH accordions tuned generally so
pretty much everything sounds nice if not absolutely
the pure perfection for each ethnic type..
a relatively gentle pulse/beat that allows for full
right hand chording across the keyboard

obviously some pro's will have a stronger LMMM box if the
major portion of their gigs are in a hard core ethnic segment
where most of the songs really need that extra gravel
to sound right, and those pro's know what they are doing,
and those LMMM boxes are useful for quite a few different
ethnic variations.. again the audiences are not complaining
if the tuning is not some kind of armchair theory perfection

a few of us will also have an extra LMMM or MMM gently tuned
box just for the richness and nice full chord Waltzes, justified by
the return on investment, but again the tuning is not to some
kind of toe the mark professorial theoretical perfection,
but simply what sounds GOOD on the thousands of songs
you gig with

Final musette fine tuning must be done by EAR,
so train your ear, and learn a few specific songs that
helps Goldilocks know when it is JUST RIGHT
when the accordion is actually being played

what i am saying is just use your ears and look for smiles on
your customers faces

 

[Alan Polivka]

There are MANY different good ways to tune MMM reeds. Some people like the "balanced" sound where M- deviates from M by the same amount as M+. Some other folks prefer what you might call "unbalanced" tuning when there are 3 sets of M reeds. That allows having a fairly dry LMM+ sound when you don't want a brash sound but a richer M-MM+ or M-M+ sound when a more wet sound is desired. It all depends upon whether or not you like having a drier LMM option available.

Anybody familiar with spectral analysis and envelope analysis of radio signals understands what the signal looks like with these different options ... think of "suppressed-carrier" modulation.