More information on this Bugari champion converter

[breezybellows]

I just purchased this from Liberty Bellows. It was listed for a very attractive price. On top of that Mike was very flexible in accepting a couple of trades (hohner xs that my daughters used) to bring the price down further.

They were not able to provide a lot of information about the model.

I'm interested to find out more about this model from others that are more familiar with Bugari models. I expect it to be delivered next week.

1) how old is this model?
2) is this a converter or a transformer? Based on the extra buttons, I guess it's a transformer.
3) any guesses on who the reed maker was?

6869 - Black Decorated Bugari Armando Champion Casotto Convertor C Piano Accordion LMMH 41 127

Type: Piano Accordion Reeds: 4/6 LMMH A442Hz +2 Cents Treble: 41 Keys, 19.25(49cm) Key to Key, 13+M Registers Bass: 127 Bass Buttons (69 Convertor buttons - 52 Convertor Tones, E-G), Low E Bass, 7 Registers Weight: 31.5lbs / 14.25kg

www.libertybellows.com

cc @debra

 

[debra]

That is a quite old model, maybe around 40 years old. Not sure what you mean by "converter or transformer"...
This convertor type uses registers sliders to switch between Stradella chords and melody bass notes. You can see that the reeds on the center reed blocks are spaced wider than in a modern (chromatic) convertor. That's because there are two holes under each reed there, and there are also two register sliders under these reeds to implement the change between chords and single notes. Also, the bit of the convertor that "sticks out" where the low notes are is because the lowest octave of the melody bass is tied directly to the base notes. So a few of these buttons that look like they are chord buttons are actually low melody bass notes that cannot be turned into chords.
While the register slider mechanism is more complicated than on other accordions the bass mechanism is less compllicated as there is no mechanical "switch" to make the chord buttons only open the pallets for single notes. This mechanism is a bit heavier on the touch because the chord buttons still open three pallets even when playing single melody bass notes.
The third (smaller) reed block has the highest melody bass notes in chromatic order. These notes are not used in the chords, so no switching needed there between chords and single notes. A register slider just disables all these reeds when using Stradella chords.
So maybe that's what you call a "transformer"? In any case, for the use as convertor there is no significant difference (other than what I explained). The resulting convertor may have fewer (high) notes than the newer ones, because more space is used/wasted on the center reed block, but in practical terms it is just as useful (as the highest notes in melody bass are rarely used anyway).
The age of the instrument and the convertor implementation on the older instrument may explain why this accordion was not more expensive.

 

[dak]

I just purchased this from Liberty Bellows. It was listed for a very attractive price.

You should turn this into a business. It would provide justification and opportunity for getting your hands on a lot of instruments.

 

[breezybellows]

So maybe that's what you call a "transformer"?

Yes. Giulietti used to call this type of converter mechanism as a transformer. This is the same mechanism used in the older Petosa cathedral model I have.

Another difference I notice between the newer converter (bass machine opening different pallets) and the register based (transformer) is that the newer converter always has the lowest set of reeds in the stradella mode. There's no way to turn it off. That's how it is in my Solloni. When I spoke with Petosa, they mentioned that to be the same for their converter models as well. I'm not sure if other makes of newer converter models let you exclude the lowest set from stradella mode.

I consider this to be a downside. With the lowest set always on, all the stradella switches sound very similar and they drown out the treble side of I select a weaker switch on the treble side. However, the older Petosa cathedral (because of the solder based mechanism) has stradella switches that can exclude the lowest set. I use this setting often. So I like this trade-off given how the touch on the free bass is heavier.

 

[breezybellows]

You should turn this into a business. It would provide justification and opportunity for getting your hands on a lot of instruments.

It's already a business. A business that keeps losing money. A true silicon valley start up.

 

[breezybellows]

@debra how do you identify a Mano reeds? I've read about the blue band but I don't really understand what it is. From the pictures, they all look the same.

 

[dak]

I'm not sure if other makes of newer converter models let you exclude the lowest set from stradella mode.

I don't think there is a reason not to. I think there are converters that have extra register switches for converter mode (I remember seeing that on Piginis) and there are some with an extra converter switch that maintains the registration but changes the relation of buttons to pallets. For the latter kind of converter, there will be registers that don't make sense in converter play. Or rather, there should be. It sounds like the instruments you are talking about have limited their registrations to those that would also work with the converter engaged.

 

[dak]

I've read about the blue band but I funny really understand what it is.

It's a somewhat unreliable indicator mostly relevant for older reeds. The blue color is an artifact from tempering. A mano reeds were produced from steel bands cut into thin stripes in the direction of the reeds before tempering, so you have the blue color on the side of the reed base, while lesser reeds were produced from wider steel bands cut into broad stripes perpendicular to the direction of the reeds before tempering (or cut after tempering), so the blue is, if at all, on the side of the reed base opposite to the reed.

 

[debra]

@debra how do you identify a Mano reeds? I've read about the blue band but I funny really understand what it is. From the pictures, they all look the same.

If you look at the square base of the reed, with the rivet, the sides of that base are dark (steel) blue, and on tipo-a-mano and machine reeds the sides are silvery shiny steel. The a mano reeds are made out of a narrow ribbon of steel, so when that steel was "blued" (heated and cooled quickly) all sides were blue, and after sanding for the first rough tuning the top side of the reed tongue became shiny, but the sides at the base that is the full width of the ribbon are still blued. Other reeds are stamped from large sheets of steel, and then the sides at the base are not blue.

 

[debra]

Another difference I notice between the newer converter (bass machine opening different pallets) and the register based (transformer) is that the newer converter always has the lowest set of reeds in the stradella mode. There's no way to turn it off. That's how it is in my Solloni. When I spoke with Petosa, they mentioned that to be the same for their converter models as well. I'm not sure if other makes of newer converter models let you exclude the lowest set from stradella mode.

The choices of registers on a convertor versus non-convertor accordion are indeed different. On a convertor accordion the Stradella base notes open just the pallet of the lowest octave in convertor. You often have one or two octave couplers to get higher octaves to play as well but you cannot eliminate the lowest octave (typically in LM, so you can select M to have only the second-lowest octave, but you cannot select just an even higher octave.
But there is a downside to non-convertor accordions (Stradella-only) as well, as illustrated in the photo below. The lower row of pallets is for the base notes, the upper row of pallets is for the chord notes. The chord buttons open only the pallets from the upper row. The base note buttons open the pallets of the lower row and you can see there are hooks so that the chord pallets are pulled open as well. To have chords that play one register slide of the chords must be open at all times, and when you play base notes these chord reeds play as well. It is thus not possible to have the base notes play just the reeds of the lowest two sets (LM or a subselection). (Some old/vintage accordions had an octave decoupler to eliminate what the hooks do.)
So there you have it: A convertor accordion will often just give you the lowest two reed sets in the Stradella base notes (unless you activate other reeds through an octave coupler) and a Stradella-only accordion cannot give you just the lowest two reed sets for the base notes but always gives you at least one higher octave as well (unless you have an octave decoupler, which no longer exists on any recent accordion). No matter what you choose you are limited one way or the other.

 

[breezybellows]

So there you have it: A convertor accordion will often just give you the lowest two reed sets in the Stradella base notes (unless you activate other reeds through an octave coupler) and a Stradella-only accordion cannot give you just the lowest two reed sets for the base notes but always gives you at least one higher octave as well (unless you have an octave decoupler, which no longer exists on any recent accordion). No matter what you choose you are limited one way or the other.

The slider based converter mechanism (as in Giulietti Transformer) doesn't have this limitation. I can select stradella mode without the 2 low octaves. So I see that as one advantage that the slider based converter mechanism offers over the newer converter mechanism.

I had the bass decoupler in the Bell 4511 I used to own and it did exactly what you mentioned.

 

[breezybellows]

I don't think there is a reason not to. I think there are converters that have extra register switches for converter mode (I remember seeing that on Piginis) and there are some with an extra converter switch that maintains the registration but changes the relation of buttons to pallets. For the latter kind of converter, there will be registers that don't make sense in converter play. Or rather, there should be. It sounds like the instruments you are talking about have limited their registrations to those that would also work with the converter engaged.

When I was discussing this with Petosa, they offered three options.

1) LL configuration for free bass. This comes with no register switches. Just one toggle for switching between free bass and stradella. It comes with 2 coupler switches near the air button. The first switch adds a higher octave (except for the last 12 notes). The second switch disables the second L block for the lowest octave.
2) LM configuration for free bass. This comes with register switches. But all of the stradella switches will include the lowest octave for the bass.
3) LMH for free bass. Similar to the LM configuration but with an extra block.

Given that Petosa uses the same converter mechanism as Bugari, I'd assume the limitation holds for Bugari as well. I'm not sure about Pigini though.

The older design in the Petosa converter has stradella options comparable to a non converter accordion. I actually like it that way. The downsides are that
1) it needs more force (compared to new design) to play the bass buttons in free bass mode (because of having to lift two pallets).
2) Its more bulkier because of the reed blocks being thicker.
3) The bass buttons are offset. The Buttons for stradella are shifted towards the bottom end. The C bass button is located where the Eb is usually located. This feels a bit weird.

 

[dak]

The choices of registers on a convertor versus non-convertor accordion are indeed different. On a convertor accordion the Stradella base notes open just the pallet of the lowest octave in convertor. You often have one or two octave couplers to get higher octaves to play as well but you cannot eliminate the lowest octave (typically in LM, so you can select M to have only the second-lowest octave, but you cannot select just an even higher octave.

Can you try this on your Morino Artiste XS (or what it was)? While my Artiste-like instrument has non-standard bass mechanics, they are derived from standard mechanics and I would expect that part to be similar on your instrument. On my instrument, the Free Bass buttons don't couple into chord octaves while the Standard Bass buttons do. This gives the Standard Bass buttons more weight when used as a pedal bass than the corresponding Free Bass buttons.

I would expect your instrument to behave the same in that respect as it seems musically sensible and orthogonal to other complications particular to my instrument. So I'd be grateful if you double-checked in order to satisfy my curiosity.

 

[debra]

Can you try this on your Morino Artiste XS (or what it was)? While my Artiste-like instrument has non-standard bass mechanics, they are derived from standard mechanics and I would expect that part to be similar on your instrument. On my instrument, the Free Bass buttons don't couple into chord octaves while the Standard Bass buttons do. This gives the Standard Bass buttons more weight when used as a pedal bass than the corresponding Free Bass buttons.

I would expect your instrument to behave the same in that respect as it seems musically sensible and orthogonal to other complications particular to my instrument. So I'd be grateful if you double-checked in order to satisfy my curiosity.

My Artiste X S is not a convertor instrument. Therefore, the mechanism is different from that of a convertor accordion and more like a standard Stradella one. The Stradella base notes do play more than just the lowest two octaves, whereas the lowest octave of the MIII melody bass does just play LM.

 

[dak]

My Artiste X S is not a convertor instrument. Therefore, the mechanism is different from that of a convertor accordion and more like a standard Stradella one. The Stradella base notes do play more than just the lowest two octaves, whereas the lowest octave of the MIII melody bass does just play LM.

Ok, so this is a limitation deriving from the specifics of converter mechanics (which most Western companies other than Pigini used to outsource to Gama I think). The non-converter mechanics from Hohner's extra-free-bass instruments then is not affected.

 

[debra]

Ok, so this is a limitation deriving from the specifics of converter mechanics (which most Western companies other than Pigini used to outsource to Gama I think). The non-converter mechanics from Hohner's extra-free-bass instruments then is not affected.

Indeed. I do believe everyone uses the same source of convertor mechanisms (which has changed a bit over the years) except for Pigini which is different (some say better, some say worse, but all say more of a nightmare to disassemble and reassemble).
The "transformer" type of convertor was also used by quite a few companies. I have seen it on Excelsior, Ballone Burini, Bugari, perhaps some more that I don't remember. Pigini also has some accordions with just registers for the (chromatic) convertor but I don't recall whether it's the same transformer design.

 

[96Bass]

It's already a business. A business that keeps losing money. A true silicon valley start up.

Not sure if you were joking about it being a business. You have to show a profit for two years in a five year period or the IRS considers it a hobby. If it is a hobby you have to report if you made $400 or over. If it is a hobby you can’t deduct any expenses.

 

[breezybellows]

Not sure if you were joking about it being a business. You have to show a profit for two years in a five year period or the IRS considers it a hobby. If it is a hobby you have to report if you made $400 or over. If it is a hobby you can’t deduct any expenses.

I was joking

 

[breezybellows]

Just got it delivered. The age is definitely showing. There's a funny smell coming out of the bellows. Not sure if it is mold. It smells like really old clothes. I'll open it up and inspect it later.

 

[debra]

Just got it delivered. The age is definitely showing. There's a funny smell coming out of the bellows. Not sure if it is mold. It smells like really old clothes. I'll open it up and inspect it later.

That sounds like a typical smell for an accordion coming from old people who never aired out their home, didn't clean properly, kept the accordion in its case for most of the time... and unlike with old clothes you cannot put the accordion in a washing machine to remove the smell. The best approach may be to air it out to start with: take the bellow pins out so the accordion becomes three separate parts and place them under cover outside, best on a screened porch (screens instead of windows) or veranda. Leave it for months (while temperatures are not too high and not too low). If that doesn't help, complete disassembly and cleaning every single part may help. There are many more tips, some more and some less helpful. The "old folks smell" is very hard to get rid of in an accordion (or in anything else that you cannot simply wash).