My Fantasy accordion: FR1XB double treble (double trouble)

[Tafaner]

My new accordion!



Don't panic! It's just what they call a "thought experiment"!

As a relative newcomer, I haven't grown up with acoustic accordions. My first instrument is an electronic Roland FR1XB - and my experience of it is quite polarised.

I absolutely love the treble side, with its bank of highly responsive buttons. Things quickly go downhill from there.

I have zero interest in pumping air via the bellows, when the only reason to do so with the FR1XB is to control EXPRESSION, which can be done much better using either MIDI, or an external airbag connected to the pressure sensing chip (which I have already trialled and am currently refining).

Crossing to the BASS side of the instrument, the experience is frankly weird if you didn't grow up doing this! Your left hand has to squeeze under a strap, bend through a right angle and manipulate a set of buttons that are completely different from those of the treble side, and much lower in quality.

I'm not a fan of OOMPAH, so the logical root for me is FREE BASS, but you only get four rows instead of 5, and you can't use your thumb! You are also still stuck with a stradella bass buttons which only traverse 1 octave and are locked into a different system (which I don't particularly like or admire, and can't be changed)

This whole concept makes perfect sense in the world of ACOUSTIC ACCORDIONS, but to me, it's completely illogical in an electronic instrument! What I would like is to have TWO TREBLE SIDES back to back as shown in the picture, with no bellows! Identical, mirror-image button keyboards - the ultimate in FREE BASS playing. I'd probably tune the left one down an octave just for good measure.

As a practical proposition, this is obviously insane and would probably get me ejected from the forum if I proposed it seriously

But stand back, and it's not as mad as you might think. Roland don't make a left-handed FR1XB, so the 2nd keyboard has to be upside down. This messes up the symmetry - and it's not just a simple matter of switching to B-GRIFF, because there isn't a variant which corresponds. However it should be possible to remap the keys using an external MIDI system?

In terms of wiring, the treble and bass sides of the FR1XB are almost independent, with only ~4 wires passing between them (basically power coming from the treble side, BASS audio returning to be mixed in on the treble side). The bellows have no reason to be there at all and could simply be removed. Et voilà!

OK, I'll see myself out

 

[Tom]

I have to say it is an interesting idea….

 

[debra]

The problem with the left hand is that you are showing a C-system keyboard layout. If you use B-system you can set the left hand for Bayan free bass and it will just be an upside-down treble keyboard, only with smaller buttons.

 

[dunlustin]

Very imaginative but I think Pierre Monichon may have been somewhere similar before you?

Harmoneon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

No bellows? What about all the money we spent on expression pedals?

 

[Ventura]

there were pre-ww2 Euro built ACCORDIOLA's with
piano keyboards on both sides

 

[Tafaner]

The problem with the left hand is that you are showing a C-system keyboard layout. If you use B-system you can set the left hand for Bayan free bass and it will just be an upside-down treble keyboard, only with smaller buttons.

Interesting suggestion! But for me, it's not just the keyboard inversion issue - it's the clunky bass buttons, the awkward wrist angle, the non-use of the thumb. The two sides are still radically different

 

[Tafaner]

Very imaginative but I think Pierre Monichon may have been somewhere similar before you?

Harmoneon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

No bellows? What about all the money we spent on expression pedals?

I knew I'd seen something similar, but couldn't remember it's name ! Yes, that's exactly what I want (but in electronic format, and with external expression control instead of bellows!). Thanks for posting that!

 

[dak]

I'm not a fan of OOMPAH, so the logical root for me is FREE BASS, but you only get four rows instead of 5, and you can't use your thumb! You are also still stuck with a stradella bass buttons which only traverse 1 octave and are locked into a different system (which I don't particularly like or admire, and can't be changed)

You probably haven't adapted much organ literature to accordion yet. Having a high-octane poly-octave bass octave the notes of which are reachable from about anywhere from the free bass gives you a lease on pedal bass even though having a left and a right melody manual.

Sure, it is a crutch, but then dancing with crutches is kind of what an accordion is about.

 

[tcabot]

Is it not easier to buy a 100 EUR piano synth keyboard and switch it into organ mode? Will probably have better sound samples too, compared to the Roland box. That's a lot more ergonomic than the proposed FrankenRoland, imho.

Also costs 20 times less.

 

[JerryPH]

... then there was the Luttbeg (SP?):


... and the Mortier/Hohner double keyboard:


... so not a unique idea. I always say that no matter what system someone comes up with, you will find someone that can usually play them impressively well, but the real test is popularity, and the humor there is that it won't matter, the accordion of itself is not very popular today... lol

 

[Tafaner]

Thanks for your various replies - but perhaps I should have made it clearer that I am specifically talking about a CHROMATIC BUTTON instrument, not a PIANO keyboard one!

To be honest, what I'm imagining is not really an accordion! Being 100% electronic, it doesn't need BELLOWS because expression can come from MIDI (sacrilege, I realise!). So I'm I'm picturing Just 2 CBA keyboards back to back, with MIDI-generated sounds and an inbuilt monitor amp/speaker. But the essential thing for me is that the "bass" side keyboard should be a MIRROR IMAGE of the treble one, so that fingering is IDENTICAL (no passing your left hand through a suitcase strap, bending it 70 degree and pressing plungers, using fingers only). Literally a MIRROR-IMAGE instrument - and obviously 'free bass only'. Both keyboards would be octave-switchable, so you could have an overlap region or even swap bass/treble around. Basically a "siamesed CBA synth"

I've not seen any instrument that does exactly that. Has anyone ?

It's not conceptually hard to imagine putting one of these together from existing components. However, MIDI CBA keyboards are rare and stupidly expensive (EUR 1500 per side!) and would anyway require software intervention to reverse the notes on the bass side one and change the power supply. So I am currently assessing fabricating a mirror-image of my Roland FR1xb keyboard as a trial. I'm thinking cut-down Cherry MX switches, possibly with stiffer 100-120g springs & custom 15mm buttons, mounted in a stepped brass switch plate (silver-soldered up from PC plates) and a Teensy 4.1 controller (which I would wire up and program myself)

Am I crazy ? Maybe ! But I already have bits on order to trial-prototype this as an add-on to my FR1xB - a supplementary unit that clips on to the "bottom" of the instrument and connects via a single lead to "Computer" US socket (getting its power from there, and communicating 2-way, MIDI thru being implemented in my code).

If it works, you will hear about it ! If not, I may go very quiet

 

[dak]

To be honest, what I'm imagining is not really an accordion! Being 100% electronic, it doesn't need BELLOWS because expression can come from MIDI (sacrilege, I realise!). So I'm I'm picturing Just 2 CBA keyboards back to back, with MIDI-generated sounds and an inbuilt monitor amp/speaker. But the essential thing for me is that the "bass" side keyboard should be a MIRROR IMAGE of the treble one, so that fingering is IDENTICAL (no passing your left hand through a suitcase strap, bending it 70 degree and pressing plungers, using fingers only). Literally a MIRROR-IMAGE instrument - and obviously 'free bass only'. Both keyboards would be octave-switchable, so you could have an overlap region or even swap bass/treble around. Basically a "siamesed CBA synth"

It's kind of a solution lacking a problem, isn't it? The problem with CBA as opposed to piano keys (including the modified piano keys on a Jankó keyboard) is that they just don't let you do velocity sensitivity all that well (or convey non-trivial forces for any purpose) because hand positions just are too cramped. They only had a breakthrough as valve controllers on accordions. Now you propose an instrument that does not play like an accordion and that generates arbitrary (not just wind instrument) sounds electronically. It also does not play like a piano or reed organ or organ in that you cannot easily pass melody lines between hands. It does not provide simplified chord accompaniment (keep in mind that with regard to popularity you see about 98% instruments just with Stradella bass, 1.4% instruments with a converter, 0.5% with both Stradella and free bass and about 0.1% with only free bass, numbers made up entirely but in a slightly plausible manner).

How well did the Harmonéon take off? How many reed organs have CBA controls? I just don't see a market for your concept that has better prospects than what has already been tried out thoroughly without making noticeable impact.

 

[Tafaner]

It's kind of a solution lacking a problem, isn't it? The problem with CBA as opposed to piano keys (including the modified piano keys on a Jankó keyboard) is that they just don't let you do velocity sensitivity all that well (or convey non-trivial forces for any purpose) because hand positions just are too cramped. They only had a breakthrough as valve controllers on accordions. Now you propose an instrument that does not play like an accordion and that generates arbitrary (not just wind instrument) sounds electronically. It also does not play like a piano or reed organ or organ in that you cannot easily pass melody lines between hands. It does not provide simplified chord accompaniment (keep in mind that with regard to popularity you see about 98% instruments just with Stradella bass, 1.4% instruments with a converter, 0.5% with both Stradella and free bass and about 0.1% with only free bass, numbers made up entirely but in a slightly plausible manner).

How well did the Harmonéon take off? How many reed organs have CBA controls? I just don't see a market for your concept that has better prospects than what has already been tried out thoroughly without making noticeable impact.

Dak, I never said anything about commercialising the idea! Where did you get that from ? This would be an instrument for ME to play - because I like accordion sounds, but dislike the popularly accepted version of the instrument.

I've done music all my life, and already play 7-string nylon guitar, 5-string fretless bass and concert & alto flutes and I gig on all of these these from time to time. I would like to get somewhere with the accordion, but STRADELLA is frankly a non-starter for me - not just for how fiddly it is to play, but for the naivety of the triad system and the lack of control over which octave or inversion you are playing. This is purely "functional" harmony, even if it is popular. Players I admire all seem to play FREE BASS. True, the instruments are rarer, but maybe because in acoustic format they are expensive to make and still not very nice to play? Not so in MIDI format.

I agree with you on VELOCITY. I wasn't thinking of attempting a velocity-sensitive keyboard, for loads of technical reasons - but also because I am not thinking of playing piano or indeed any kind of articulated wind instrument - because the articulation is just not "real" enough. As a flute player, I wince every time I hear a synthetic flute. But synthetic accordions and pipe organs sound fine to me ! The original instruments offer no individual articulation of notes, so can sound quite decent on a simple MIDI keyboard (with just overall volume/expression control)

Not sure what you mean by this bit: "...in that you cannot easily pass melody lines between hands". This precisely the kind of thing I would like to do. Twin overlappable CBA keyboards would seem ideal for that. You would want the same "sound" in each hand obviously, but that's something I expect to do (on the FR1X you just set the MIDI channel to be the same for both hands, channels 1,2,4 or 5)

Each to his own, obviously!

 

[dak]

Dak, I never said anything about commercialising the idea! Where did you get that from ? This would be an instrument for ME to play - because I like accordion sounds, but dislike the popularly accepted version of the instrument.

The reasons that make the effort not likely to yield commercial success are pretty much the same reasons making the effort not likely to significantly change the game for a single person.

 

[Ventura]

have you contacted FATAR in Italy about available keyboard modules ?

even as far as 45 years ago they had simple spring actuated
button matrix individual electrical switched accordion type
pre-made sections in several sizes and types, which they
supplied to MASTER who were taking E-series synths
produced by Roland Italy and replacing their piano key
sections with button sections (to look much like the little
accordion keyboard reed-organs of earlier times)

i remember seeing them on the workbenches.. looked
very easy to implement them into any design you would create
assuming you are making all the electronic logic/software yourself

i imagine they are still supplying them for such devices as the
accordion "STICK" thing that Musictech has (does Cory play one?)

 

[Tafaner]

have you contacted FATAR in Italy about available keyboard modules ?

even as far as 45 years ago they had simple spring actuated
button matrix individual electrical switched accordion type
pre-made sections in several sizes and types, which they
supplied to MASTER who were taking E-series synths
produced by Roland Italy and replacing their piano key
sections with button sections (to look much like the little
accordion keyboard reed-organs of earlier times)

i remember seeing them on the workbenches.. looked
very easy to implement them into any design you would create
assuming you are making all the electronic logic/software yourself

i imagine they are still supplying them for such devices as the
accordion "STICK" thing that Musictech has (does Cory play one?)

Interesting suggestion, thanks !

As indicated, I've given up on pre-made CBA MIDI keyboards for various reasons (I can't easily reverse the key direction, plus they come in a box I don't want, with a power supply I don't want). BUT pre-made switch matrices could be a solution - especially if the "feel" was good. So I may well follow up on that!

For now, I am waiting for delivery of a bunch of Cherry MX silent mechanical keyboard switches. I may find that the touch is too light and that the springs need upgrading. I would also have to cut them down to size, because they are made for a 19mm x 19mm matrix, and I want something closer to 19mm x 15mm, but happily there is part of the switch body which is "empty" as it is meant for an LED. If I can get the idea working it could be a good solution! Mechanical keyboard switches are made by the billion, cost peanuts and are rated for up to 50 million actuations! Likewise precut 19mm x 19mm switch plates are cheap and plentiful, and I should be able to modify them.

I don't know the accordion "stick" - but it sound likely to kick up a lot more dust than my humble idea

 

[Ventura]

many models of Cherry switches also have a through-hole so
they can be mounted on/along a steel rod, making alignment easier
and some model switches are make one make two which can allow
for some Velocity conjuring in your software

Chromatic Keyboards MT60

Chromatic Master Keyboard with dynamics

www.musictech-midi.it

variations on this kind of thing has been around for a long time..
one model is "on a stick" like a Keytar or ROLAND axis

 

[Tafaner]

many models of Cherry switches also have a through-hole so
they can be mounted on/along a steel rod, making alignment easier
and some model switches are make one make two which can allow
for some Velocity conjuring in your software

Chromatic Keyboards MT60

Chromatic Master Keyboard with dynamics

www.musictech-midi.it

variations on this kind of thing has been around for a long time..
one model is "on a stick" like a Keytar or ROLAND axis

Interesting.

The Cherry switches I've ordered for an initial test are MX2A-81NN which clip into a 14 x 14 panel cutout. The panels I've ordered are machine cut, so hopefully alignment will be OK, but I may need to glue them in for stability! Fingers crossed.

I've not encountered the "velocity capable" switches you refer to? From what I've heard, synth makers use a variety of techniques: sometimes 2 switches that fire in sequence, sometimes optical or hall effect sensors. To me, these various solutions seem possible for piano keyboards, but much harder for CBA buttons, which are much smaller and only have 4-5mm of travel. So I've rather given up on "velocity" (which isn't needed for accordion or pipe-organ sounds anyway)

I did look at the Musictech keyboards! As well as the one you show, there's the MT40N, which dispenses with the bass buttons - but still costs a staggering EUR 1500 ! The earlier model, the MT40, still occasionally comes up second hand in France - but they still fetch a high price! I think the reason may be that is uses a "real" accordion keyboard (ie with levers and something to imitate valve opening/closing) so the "feel" is probably better than what I am attempting - but at a much higher price (and a fair weight ! 4Kg or so!)

Thanks for the comments!