New Giulietti Classic 127 or new Scandalli Super VI Extreme?

[Fredson96]

Good evening everyone. I'm currently thinking about acquiring a new accordion. My current one is an Excelsior Mod. 2000 E R, which apparently is kind of a "rare" model (not many were made before Pigini bought CEMEX, and production stopped then). I made a post about it back when I bought it (thank very much to everyone who replied back then, btw ). I like the Excelsior a lot, but it has some little details that need fixing. I was wondering if it'd be more cost effective to fix them or use the money to buy a new one. I'm researching these details but, in the meantime, I thought it'd be best to already research a possible new accordion.

I'm in Brazil. Importing is actual hell because of customs, so I'm looking at the models available in the Brazilian market. The current two models that caught my attention are the ones in the post's title (pictures attached). Both accordions are new an were made somewhat recently. As far as I'm concerned:

1) Scandalli is still an independent factory. I tested it and, to no one's surprise, Super VI Extreme is a great accordion (apparently, it's one of the best Stradella model made by Scandalli nowadays). Unfortunately, I've no details about the quality of the materials and the built quality of the instrument. Although the bass decoupler is a nice feature, but it's not a selling point for me (maybe one day I'd love it, but this is very unlikely). It's the most expensive alternative.

2) Giulietti's status confuses me (the history of accordion manufacturers is insanely convoluted for some ungodly reason). As far as I know, the factory doesn't exists anymore and the new Classic 127 accordions are made by Bugari Armando (I've seen some people mentioning it on the forum, so I assume that this is indeed the case). I've tested it and it sounds great (specially the bass, very low and deep), it truly feels like a great accordion. However, as is the case with the Extreme, I've no details on the quality of the materials and the built quality of the instrument. The Classic's reed blocks' wood is darker than the Extreme (no idea if this matters though). It's the most affordable alternative.

As you guys can see, I've little information regarding the accordions at hand. Sound wise, they're different, but I like both. Therefore, the main selling point for me is quality. I'd like a sturdy, resilient, well-built accordion made with quality materials that will last. If the leap isn't too huge, I reckon the Giulietti is the better option (it's price tag is 73% of the Extreme after all). However, if the Extreme is way superior, I'm willing to go an extra mile and get it.

My idea with this post is to (hopefully) find people that know the technical details that I'm missing and can help me better understand these accordions, so that I can choose correctly. Of course, it'd be nice to know if buying a new one is a good idea is a better idea than "improving" (i.e., sending to a professional to make all the necessary repairs and adjustments) an Excelsior fabricated in the 90's. In advance, I'm truly thankful to everyone who can help

I reckon that the following info is the most relevant:

1) Type and quality of the reeds. I know that the Extreme's reeds are a mano reeds and are the best ones currently offered by Scandalli. I've no idea about the Classic's reeds, though. Do they use a mano reeds as well? Or they use, for example, Binci reeds for the Classic 127?
2) Type and quality of wood. I don't know if it can be infered from the pictures, or if this info is available somewhere. It'd be amazing to know though, for this plays a huge role on the lifespan and sound quality of the insrument.
3) Quality of built. I reckon that Scandalli and Bugari are some of the best when it comes to this, but it's always good to see if one has an upper hand over the other for some reason.

 

[debra]

First of all, both choices are excellent accordions.
But regarding the origins you are somewhat misinformed.
For a very long time the Scandalli accordions were made by Farfisa and if you search for more details on who made which Scandalli accordions in which time period you may find several answers. The one thing that is certain is that "Scandalli is still an independent factory" is false. Scandalli accordions are made in a factory that also makes other brands of accordions. They have the right to use the name "Scandalli" but they are not the "Scandalli factory".
Giulietti decided many decades ago to have his accordions built for him in Italy. The first generations were made by Serenelli (and have a G-clef on the grille). Then Giulietti (not being satisfied with the quality) asked Zero Sette to build his accordions (and these have the logo like on the one you showed). Zero Sette shares its factory with Armando Bugari. The statement about Giulietti: "the factory doesn't exists anymore" is strictly speaking true, but has been true for over 6 decades, and can only refer to Giulietti's workshop in the USA long ago. The Serenelli factory also no longer exists for several decades. Zero Sette has been the real "Giulietti factory" for a very long time and (after some financial issues I believe) joined forces with Bugari. There was a brief period in which the production of Giulietti stopped and then later resumed but a Giulietti like the one you showed (with cassotto) is as good as ever. (An old repairer who taught me the first bits about accordion repair actually bought some unfinished Giulietti accordions when production stopped, and he completed these accordions with very good reeds.)

 

[Fredson96]

As always, your deep knowledge astonishes me, @debra. Thank your very much for this piece information! Indeed, I've much to learn regarding the history of the manufacturers. I've heard A LOT of wrong information throughout the years (people say loads of nonsense here in Brazil, you'd be appaled), so it has been a long process of filtering outdated/wrong information and trying to learn from good, reliable sources. The knowledge from people like you is invaluable, it's one of the things that makes this forum as great as it is

Regarding the instruments, I'm glad to know they're both excellent, since the choice comes down to preference instead of strict technical comparison. Finally, would you perchance have any info on the specifics regarding these accordions (i.e., type and quality of wood and type and quality of reeds)? I don't know how much weight I should put on this kind of info, but I imagine that, at least, it wouldn't hurt to know details like this. After all, we have to use every bit of knowledge to make (or at least try to make) the best decisions

 

[debra]

Sorry, I do not have more specifics. I have worked on several recent Scandalli accordions (most with convertor) and they are good quality, with handmade reeds. I don't know what reeds are in the Giulietti, but either Tipo a Mano or A Mano in any case.
All such accordions (full size, double cassotto) weigh in at around 12kg (plus straps, case...) I'm sure manufacturers will specify a weight, and to that it's safe to say that you may need to add 1kg because they are all optimistic.

 

[Fredson96]

All good, @debra. Thank you for sharing what you know

The seller told me that this specific Classic's reeds are Bugari a mano reeds, and that they're comparable to the regular Super VI reeds. Don't know if the information is correct, however. Wouldn't be surprised though, for this is a nice, pricier model after all. He also told me that both the regular Super VI and the Extreme have "better construction quality" than the Classic, whatever that means. It's really hard to sort out what's actually true. In any case, I'll wait a bit more to see if any other member has more info on the topic.

 

[debra]

All good, @debra. Thank you for sharing what you know

The seller told me that this specific Classic's reeds are Bugari a mano reeds, and that they're comparable to the regular Super VI reeds. Don't know if the information is correct, however. Wouldn't be surprised though, for this is a nice, pricier model after all. He also told me that both the regular Super VI and the Extreme have "better construction quality" than the Classic, whatever that means. It's really hard to sort out what's actually true. In any case, I'll wait a bit more to see if any other member has more info on the topic.

Bugari tipo-a-mano and a-mano reeds were quite popular in the period 1950-1970 (more or less). Crucianelli used them in their accordions (tipo a mano in the Super Video and a mano in the Baton). Hohner put Bugari tipo-a-mano reeds in the later Morino M series and Excelsior put Bugari tipo-a-mano reeds in the Hohner Morino N series. Older reeds, like Bugari, Taborro, Magnatera and others have nice sound and very good construction quality which appears to top the best reeds being made today (but opinions on that may vary). The Bugari reed maker was not related to the Armando Bugari company in any way (afaik).
The Scandalli Super VI (and Extreme) accordions sadly do not have the same properties and wonderful sound of the 1960's Super VI. There manufacturing is completely independent of how it was done in the sixties. The modern Scandalli is a good accordion, but the name "Super VI" raises expectations these accordions cannot fulfill.

 

[Walker]

The modern accordions featured in this post represent the latest versions of the renowned Scandalli Super VI and Giulietti Classic 127 models, both of which were icons of the accordion "Golden Age". Replicating the esteemed accordions from the past is a daunting, nearly impossible task, yet despite potential criticism for leveraging such historic names, these new models stand out as very fine instruments in their own merit.

Scandalli currently operates on a smaller scale compared to its Farfisa era from 1946 to 1984. The Menghini family and Mirco Patarini manage the company, which, to my knowledge, now exclusively manufactures Scandalli instruments and is not part of a larger corporate entity. Previously, brands like Paolo Soprani, SEM, and Scandalli were under the Suoni Group umbrella, which is no longer the case.

The Super VI Extreme is Scandalli's premier "traditional" accordion, featuring top-tier "artisan" reeds, believed to be a superior version of a mano reeds. It is understood that Scandalli combines a significant amount of maple (amongst other wood species) in their highline models, hence the beautiful light coloured wood and contrasting dark mahogany finish for the casings etc.

Conversely, Giulietti, an American brand, was acquired by Bugari along with Zero Sette in 2007. Bugari appears to be a part of the investment portfolio of Tianjin Huayun Ltd., a Chinese firm.

Regrettably, the Giulietti Classic 127 has diminished in stature, now positioned below the Petosa AM1100 and Bugari G1. Nonetheless, the Classic 127 features handmade reeds and employs mahogany for the reed blocks and casings, still a super accordion.

While I have not personally tested the new Classic 127, I have played the Bugari G1, which is an exceptional accordion. The Scandalli Super VI Extreme is similarly remarkable. Although the G1 may closely rival the Super VI Extreme, the Classic 127 might just be a little out of its depth in such company.​

 

[Fredson96]

Bugari tipo-a-mano and a-mano reeds were quite popular in the period 1950-1970 (more or less). Crucianelli used them in their accordions (tipo a mano in the Super Video and a mano in the Baton). Hohner put Bugari tipo-a-mano reeds in the later Morino M series and Excelsior put Bugari tipo-a-mano reeds in the Hohner Morino N series. Older reeds, like Bugari, Taborro, Magnatera and others have nice sound and very good construction quality which appears to top the best reeds being made today (but opinions on that may vary). The Bugari reed maker was not related to the Armando Bugari company in any way (afaik).
The Scandalli Super VI (and Extreme) accordions sadly do not have the same properties and wonderful sound of the 1960's Super VI. There manufacturing is completely independent of how it was done in the sixties. The modern Scandalli is a good accordion, but the name "Super VI" raises expectations these accordions cannot fulfill.

It's great to know that Bugari reeds were requested to such degree by such brands, it speaks volumes about their quality. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that this informarion provided by the seller is correct. As far as I'm concerned, it could one of those cases in which the seller gives an answear to a question simply to do so. Maybe he meant "Bugari Armando a mano reeds", but said only Bugari out of custom (after all, in conversation, the "Armando" is often omitted). Hopefully this info is legit though, for it makes everything easier. It's already hard to deal with limited info, but limited info that can be incorrect makes everything way harder ;-;

As for the classic Super VI, I've only heard the highest complimentes about them. Same goes for some of the older Classic 127. I'm positive that they're truly outstanding instruments, so reproducing them nowadays is almost (if not totally) impossible. However, truth be told, I'm not that great a musician to have something on this level. Actually, it'd be a complete waste on my hands. I'm not very skilled, nor I've a good enough ear to trully appreciate their sound. I believe instruments of this caliber should be used by tallented people that can bring out their potential

My current idea is just to have a new accordion (without the problems associated with second-hand instruments) that is sturdy, reliable, well built and that will help me annoy my neighbors for years to come (just kidding, I'm sure they all think I'm a very cool pop star by now). The regular Super VI, the Extreme and the Classic are the models that I can actually test and have access to, so I'd rather chose between them (I don't trust my ear enough to buy such an expensive instrument via video sampling). They may not compare to their golden era counter parts, but if they sound nice and are well built, then I'm more than happy with any of them. I'm trying to make my choice as thoroughly as possible though, trying my best to collect and compare info, so that I won't regret my choice latter.

Right now, I'm between the Classic and the Extreme (more so the Classic, because 2 of the bass registers just hit that sweet spot for me). I intend to test both models again eventually but, if memory serves, I personally believe that Extreme's keyboard sounds nicer and stronger, while Classic's bass registers have the sound I prefer. I'm trying to get more technical info on both because it helps a bunch as well, since it plays a huge role on the instrument overall longevity. Let's see if someone knows some nice details about these models )>'-')>

 

[Fredson96]

The modern accordions featured in this post represent the latest versions of the renowned Scandalli Super VI and Giulietti Classic 127 models, both of which were icons of the accordion "Golden Age". Replicating the esteemed accordions from the past is a daunting, nearly impossible task, yet despite potential criticism for leveraging such historic names, these new models stand out as very fine instruments in their own merit.

Scandalli currently operates on a smaller scale compared to its Farfisa era from 1946 to 1984. The Menghini family and Mirco Patarini manage the company, which, to my knowledge, now exclusively manufactures Scandalli instruments and is not part of a larger corporate entity. Previously, brands like Paolo Soprani, SEM, and Scandalli were under the Suoni Group umbrella, which is no longer the case.

The Super VI Extreme is Scandalli's premier "traditional" accordion, featuring top-tier "artisan" reeds, believed to be a superior version of a mano reeds. It is understood that Scandalli combines a significant amount of maple (amongst other wood species) in their highline models, hence the beautiful light coloured wood and contrasting dark mahogany finish for the casings etc.

Conversely, Giulietti, an American brand, was acquired by Bugari along with Zero Sette in 2007. Bugari appears to be a part of the investment portfolio of Tianjin Huayun Ltd., a Chinese firm.

Regrettably, the Giulietti Classic 127 has diminished in stature, now positioned below the Petosa AM1100 and Bugari G1. Nonetheless, the Classic 127 features handmade reeds and employs mahogany for the reed blocks and casings, still a super accordion.

While I have not personally tested the new Classic 127, I have played the Bugari G1, which is an exceptional accordion. The Scandalli Super VI Extreme is similarly remarkable. Although the G1 may closely rival the Super VI Extreme, the Classic 127 might just be a little out of its depth in such company.​

I expected that someone in the forum would have some specific technical info regarding these models, but this was trully a gift. Thank you very much

This matches what I've seen/heard so far: a new Extreme is superior to a new Classic 127. My biggest concern regarding the new Classic is the lack of technical info available on it. I didn't knew neither its material, exact produces or which reeds it used. A good decision without this information is all but impossible

However, thanks to you guys, I believe that we've this: the new Classic 127 is made by Bugari Armando, employs mahogany for the reed blocks and casings and has handmade reeds (presumably made by Bugari itself).

I imagine that the wood used in both the Classic and the Extreme is aged and of the highest quality, so I probably don't need to worry about this detail. I also assume that the manufacturers of both models are some of the best in Castelfidardo today, so quality of built is probably something I don't have to worry about either. All and all, it seems that, besides the price tag, it all comes down to personal preference, which is amazing. I'm really glad that I can choose between two excelent instruments based on which sound I prefer

I reckon that this post can be used as an information source on both models for anyone who may need it in the future. If anyone has additional info regarding these models or would like to share their personal experience with them, it'd be more then welcome to do so! Nevertheless, when I make my decision, I'll come back and let you guys know. To @debra and @Walker: from the bottom of my heart, thank you guys. I was trully lost and had too little information to work with. Now, however, I believe I can make a proper decision based on a reasonable understanding of both models and their characteristics, and this feeling is priceless.

​

 

[debra]

I expected that someone in the forum would have some specific technical info regarding these models, but this was trully a gift. Thank you very much

...

The thing about the 127 classic (if it still looks the same as the old ones) is that the design of the grille is very beneficial to the sound. The sound that comes out of the cassotto is "blocked" by the solid part of the grille which makes the tone even more mellow. The reeds outside of cassotto are under the large cutout in the grille and can thus produce their sound more directly (and brighter). This combination gives Giulietti accordions with cassotto and with this grille the characteristic sound that many people love. (And this design doesn't work well at all on a non-cassotto Giulietti because it makes the white and black keys sound differently, with the reeds for the black keys under the solid part and the reeds for the white keys under the open part.
As for the Scandalli, it sounds more like most other accordions with a more "standard" grille design. I have worked on many different accordions and don't find the high end Scandalli accordions to sound any better than a similarly priced Bugari for instance. (And I have a slight preference for the Bugari construction, but that is the opinion of me as a repairer, not as a player.)

 

[debra]

It's great to know that Bugari reeds were requested to such degree by such brands, it speaks volumes about their quality. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that this informarion provided by the seller is correct. As far as I'm concerned, it could one of those cases in which the seller gives an answear to a question simply to do so. Maybe he meant "Bugari Armando a mano reeds", but said only Bugari out of custom (after all, in conversation, the "Armando" is often omitted). Hopefully this info is legit though, for it makes everything easier. It's already hard to deal with limited info, but limited info that can be incorrect makes everything way harder ;-;
...

There is no such thing as "Bugari Armando a mano reeds". Armando Bugari does not make any reeds. They use reeds from all the main reed makers, depending on the model. They certainly use Voci Armoniche, Artigiani Voci, Cagnoni and I have seen some other names on the reeds as well. And a new Giulietti cannot be using Bugari reeds unless someone ripped these reeds out of an old accordion and put them in. (I for instance have a very old Hohner Morino VI M with Bugari reeds waiting for its reeds to be reused in another accordion in need of new reeds.)

 

[Fredson96]

The thing about the 127 classic (if it still looks the same as the old ones) is that the design of the grille is very beneficial to the sound. The sound that comes out of the cassotto is "blocked" by the solid part of the grille which makes the tone even more mellow. The reeds outside of cassotto are under the large cutout in the grille and can thus produce their sound more directly (and brighter). This combination gives Giulietti accordions with cassotto and with this grille the characteristic sound that many people love. (And this design doesn't work well at all on a non-cassotto Giulietti because it makes the white and black keys sound differently, with the reeds for the black keys under the solid part and the reeds for the white keys under the open part.
As for the Scandalli, it sounds more like most other accordions with a more "standard" grille design. I have worked on many different accordions and don't find the high end Scandalli accordions to sound any better than a similarly priced Bugari for instance. (And I have a slight preference for the Bugari construction, but that is the opinion of me as a repairer, not as a player.)

That repairer preference is exactly one of the things I was hopping to hear at the forum. It's invaluable and carries a lot of weight. If a professional of your caliber has a slight preference for the Bugari construction, than this speaks volumes about it's overall quality. Thank you very much for sharing it, you can't imagine how much it helps

 

[Fredson96]

There is no such thing as "Bugari Armando a mano reeds". Armando Bugari does not make any reeds. They use reeds from all the main reed makers, depending on the model. They certainly use Voci Armoniche, Artigiani Voci, Cagnoni and I have seen some other names on the reeds as well. And a new Giulietti cannot be using Bugari reeds unless someone ripped these reeds out of an old accordion and put them in. (I for instance have a very old Hohner Morino VI M with Bugari reeds waiting for its reeds to be reused in another accordion in need of new reeds.)

My point exactly. I meant to say that, if the seller didn't knew this information, he probably came up with this answear just to give one. Even if Bugari doesn't make reeds, the buyer probably don't know about this detail, so just say that they are handmade Bugari reeds and the "a mano" effect will kick in. One thing is for sure: no one ripped Bugari reeds from an older model to put into this new Classic (I sure hope not, at least). It probably has reeds from one of the makers you mentioned, either tipo a mano or a mano. However, by his answear, it's clear that he actually doesn't know (see why I came to the forum to collect info? Unfortunately, sellers are often willing to say anything in otder to sell). I'll try to contact Bugari directly to see which reeds are used in the new Classic they make.

 

[Walker]

I'll try to contact Bugari directly to see which reeds are used in the new Classic they make.

If you're in the market for an exceptional accordion, consider inquiring about the Bugari G1 during your discussions with Bugari. This model stands out because it features artisan reeds handpicked by Bugari, which are uniquely nailed and glued to the reed block instead of being waxed. With only 100 G1 models ever to be produced, it's significantly rarer than even a Hohner Gola. Just sayin'.

 

[debra]

If you're in the market for an exceptional accordion, consider inquiring about the Bugari G1 during your discussions with Bugari. This model stands out because it features artisan reeds handpicked by Bugari, which are uniquely nailed and glued to the reed block instead of being waxed. With only 100 G1 models ever to be produced, it's significantly rarer than even a Hohner Gola. Just sayin'.

Everything is a matter of taste. I would not consider buying an accordion where the reeds are not waxed in place (except for large multi-reed plates of course). My experience with any form of nailed reeds is that tuning remains less stable than with waxed reeds. The "glue" may of course make a difference, but accordion repairers are always dreading reed plates that are glued to the reed block...

 

[Fredson96]

If you're in the market for an exceptional accordion, consider inquiring about the Bugari G1 during your discussions with Bugari. This model stands out because it features artisan reeds handpicked by Bugari, which are uniquely nailed and glued to the reed block instead of being waxed. With only 100 G1 models ever to be produced, it's significantly rarer than even a Hohner Gola. Just sayin'.

Not an option :/

The main reason I'm focusing on these models is that I can test them and they're already in Brazil. Importing small stuff is already very hard, and I'm not masochist to subject myself to the hell called "issues with customs" when it comes to something as big and expensive as an accordion.

Plus, being a rarer model is nice and all but, besides the status of "rare instrument", I don't see much benefit to it besides a possibly higher price tag. I'm not a collector after all. If I've an outstanding "common" accordion, that's more than enough for me

 

[Walker]

The Scandalli Super VI (and Extreme) accordions sadly do not have the same properties and wonderful sound of the 1960's Super VI. There manufacturing is completely independent of how it was done in the sixties. The modern Scandalli is a good accordion, but the name "Super VI" raises expectations these accordions cannot fulfill.

In today's world, the accordion manufacturing game is a bit like a high-stakes poker match. Trying to outdo the classic squeezeboxes of the '50s and '60s? That's like trying to beat a royal flush with a pair of twos. So, the big question on everyone's lips: Should Scandalli fold their Super VI hand and go all-in with a shiny new model... like the Air VI?

But let's not be too hasty, the latest Super VI Extreme might just be the best thing since sliced bread—or at least since 1970. As someone who's owned a vintage M series Super VI (circa 1960) and tickled the ivories of the new Super VI Extreme, I'm telling you, the gap between old and new isn't as wide as the Grand Canyon.​

Everything is a matter of taste. I would not consider buying an accordion where the reeds are not waxed in place (except for large multi-reed plates of course). My experience with any form of nailed reeds is that tuning remains less stable than with waxed reeds. The "glue" may of course make a difference, but accordion repairers are always dreading reed plates that are glued to the reed block...

Bugari may not have a storied past in accordion lore, but they're not letting that stop them from making some noise in the industry. They're setting out to handcraft a whopping 12! yes 12! G1 models (piano version) each year, borrowing a page or two from the Bugari Spectrum converter's blueprint in the process.

They're cherry-picking the crème de la crème of reeds, nailing them down in true Giovanni Gola fashion (though he was a nails-and-wax kind of guy), or maybe giving a nod to Antonio Ranco's throwback technique of nails-plus-glue in the Supervox.

Gianluca Gobbetti, Bugari's great accordion builder, is stirring up a mix of old-school and avant-garde methods to whip up his pièce de résistance. And about those glued reeds? Sure, it might give repairers the jitters, but hey, it's not like he's whipping out the superglue and going DIY on us. Just a thought. ​

Not an option :/

The main reason I'm focusing on these models is that I can test them and they're already in Brazil. Importing small stuff is already very hard, and I'm not masochist to subject myself to the hell called "issues with customs" when it comes to something as big and expensive as an accordion.

Plus, being a rarer model is nice and all but, besides the status of "rare instrument", I don't see much benefit to it besides a possibly higher price tag. I'm not a collector after all. If I've an outstanding "common" accordion, that's more than enough for me

Indeed, there's nothing like testing an accordion in person. I usually lean towards Scandalli for their dulcet tones, but the Bugari G1? That's the accordion realm's rare gem – hard to find and a possible treasure. This particular charmer might very well become the VIP (Very Important Piano accordion) outshining the common or garden bellower in the resale value stakes...