New Player With Questions

[Technical]

Recently aquired a large piano accordion and have started to teach myself with a book. I play other instruments like piano and can read muisic and so it has been pretty straight forward for the first steps.

I want to ask what I suspect are very basic questions.

1) I'm trying to figure out the correct posture/technique for the bass as I find it easy to locate F, C, G and D (plus majors and minors) with my fingers without looking after a few practices but my hand just seems to get in the way and stops my fingers from getting there. If I put my hand in a comfortable position for C (using forth and third fingers seem most easy to me) I can alternate easily as well as go to higher keys e.g. G, D etc. I can sort of get F too but I find it hard to go down in notes, especially below C because I'm trying to twist my hand to get these notes but then I can't rest my fourth and third fingers on the correct buttons as I did for C and above due to the angle, my thick fingers get in the way of each other. For context I have large hands, thick fingers and am not flexible. I tried loosening the hand strap as much as I can to allow my hand to slide up and down more which has helped but I can't just slide it completely freely as it moves this half of the instrument with my hand. Are you suppose to slide your hand up and down to get to notes or twist? I also find it very difficult to press both adjacent buttons at the same time due to my fingers, so I cheat and use one finger to do it e.g. C and C major. Any advice on hand posture, position, technique, how tight should the hand strap be etc.?

2) Is there any trick to balancing the volume from the melody and bass? I find if I play too quietly the bass notes play but not the melody, I assume because the bass is taking what little air there is. Am I correct in thinking that the minimum volume you can achieve together is whatever minimum air is required to sound both sides? I feel like pressing a melody key just before the bass gives the melody an advantage but its not always possible to do this.

Thanks.

 

[Dingo40]

Hi, Technical and welcome!
Everything will work itself out given enough time and practice!

Are you suppose to slide your hand up and down to get to notes or twist?

short answer: a bit of both!

how tight should the hand strap be?

Rather looser than too tight.

Am I correct in thinking that the minimum volume you can achieve together is whatever minimum air is required to sound both sides?

At first, until you become proficient with a tune, if you find yourself short of air use the piccolo reeds on the treble and the tenor coupler in the bass. These use less air.
When you become more fluent, you'll need less air and use whatever couplers you want!
As the bricklayer said: the first 1,000 bricks are the hardest!

 

[debra]

On some accordions the ends of the bass strap are flush with the base plate, so as you try to slide your hand up and down the space becomes tighter. Ideally the bass strap is held away from the plate enough to have the bass strap mostly straight from top to bottom while you are playing. Adding a spacer at the top and bottom may help, if you can still get the strap adjusted with the wheel (if the long threaded rod at the top of the strap can go in far enough). To play all the bass notes your hand needs to be able to move up and down, not just twisting your wrist.

As for the balance between melody and bass, playing the bass notes and chords longer or shorter will influence the balance, but for long notes the balance is a result of the design of the specific accordion. Note that the balance is almost always quite different for the audience listening to your playing than it is for yourself while you play. (The sound is directed away from the player to avoid musicians going deaf.)

 

[Ventura]

to compensate temporarily, while you get your feel for it all,
if you can borrow a manhasset type music stand
(they have a solid metal plate for the sheet music)
and angle it so that your treble side sound sort of reflects off it
and back up toward your ears

 

[tcabot]

RE treble-bass balance, this is down to the instrument (and its quality).
One way to get round this, if your bass is way overpowering, is to play staccatissimo, but it's a bodge.
If your melody is overpowering the bass - the easiest solution is to stick the dang thing on ebay. I had one box like this and hated it.

From what you're saying - starting the treble before bass helps - it sounds like your box might need a service (or maybe you need a new box with good quality reeds). Poor reeds are no fun to play. There's also a related issue you might notice, when you play legato in the right and pump the basses, the melody just "drops" because the low quality basses consume too much air and the bellows pressure drops severely. Sometimes this is debilitating, especially on dry tuning.
In a well-set up box, these issues are ironed out and don't affect your playing.

Perfect boxes don't really exist in real life, unless you're re-mortgaging your house to get one brought to perfection. Minor issues are OK and you can live with them. But if it messes up with your playing -it's a good idea to upgrade.

 

[John M]

Most won't like my solution -- Get a Roland digital accordion. There is a Treble/Bass balance knob right on the accordion. You can "trim" the balance exactly to your liking. I always keep the knob in the center (detent) position and do the adjustment in software so I don't have to make adjustments when I am playing.

 

[Technical]

Thanks for all the responses. My strap isn't completely flush, it's offset slightly but my hand is thick so it pushes it out. I feel like I'm just missing something, maybe I'll figure it out with enough playing but sliding up is ok, sliding down is tricky. I find if I need to slide down a decent amount I have to pull my hand out a bit, hold the instrument, slide my hand down and back in.

I should have clarified on the second point, it's not exactly an issue but just trying to understand the limits of what can be done and be aware of anything which can give more control. I can usually balance the 2 out just by giving more air but of course it gets louder, not really loud but loud enough.

 

[Dingo40]

I find if I need to slide down a decent amount I have to pull my hand out a bit, hold the instrument, slide my hand down and back in.

I found that a leather bass strap had a tendency to "stick" to the back of my hand and wrist, impeding comfortable sliding up and down the bass board.
There have been several threads on this topic and remedies have varied.
Several members suggested the wearing of a glove covering the left hand and wrist.
My personal preferred solution is to fit a stiff cloth sleeve over the leather bass strap, or to replace the leather bass strap with one covered in velvet (or velour).
This may be what you need?
See here :

Thread 'Compression arm tube?'

Feb 20, 2022

I have noticed two players one extremely accomplished professional wearing a black compression tube on their arm. Is this because of tendonitis?

• Beemer
• Replies: 11
• Forum: Accordion Chat

And here :

Thread 'Sweaty forearms and bass straps'

Aug 8, 2020

Some time ago, there was a longish thread on the problem of sweaty forearms sticking to bass straps and impeding play in warm conditions. A side issue was a similar problem caused by deteriorating leather of the bass strap.
At the time, I suggested the sewing of a stiffened sleeve of strong cloth to slip over the bass strap, and this would virtually eliminate either problem.
Unfortunately, the forum at that time couldn't attach an image from one's iPhone to illustrate the suggestion.
But now it can!
So herewith a couple of illustrations:
(I'll post them separately so as not to...

• Dingo40
• Replies: 12
• Forum: How do I ....... ?

• 

 

[debra]

Thanks for all the responses. My strap isn't completely flush, it's offset slightly but my hand is thick so it pushes it out. I feel like I'm just missing something, maybe I'll figure it out with enough playing but sliding up is ok, sliding down is tricky. I find if I need to slide down a decent amount I have to pull my hand out a bit, hold the instrument, slide my hand down and back in.

...

Here is a picture to show what I meant by adding a spacer for the bass strap. It needs to be done on both ends.
The spacer is wedged between the "thin" part of the feet and the strap. So it keeps the strap a bit firther away from the base plate. And because of the spacer the feet were no longer thick enough to really support the accordion when placed on its feet (it became wobbly) so I got extra plastic+rubber feet (a regular hardware store item). The spacer itself can easily be made from wood or 3D printed plastic. (The one in the picture is 3D printed in black PLA.)
Some accordion manufacturers used to add such a spacer themselves on convertor instruments (as players need to move their hand up and own to reach high and low notes on the melody bass). For some unknown reason they appear to have stopped this practice.

 

[Technical]

Thanks both, both sound like potential solutions although the problem with the spacer is that I already have the strap at max length without it coming off and it's not exactly loose. I feel like that solution would work though. I'll look into both, any other ideas people have are welcome too.

 

[Technical]

I've been learning and practicing more and making good progress (as far as I can tell). One thing I've come to realise is my back straps are too short even at the longest setting (I'm broad and have a long torso), the top of the instrument is just under my chin and the instrument is no where near my lap so it's effectively like playing standing up as it get's no support underneath. Hopefully longer straps will improve things.

I can now find E to Eb, base note to 7th chord but I still have some similar issues as described above. If I'm playing something where the base notes are within say 4 or so of each other e.g. beginners stuff, I can get away with just slightly moving my hand or twisting it to make up the difference to reach them but when it comes to moving from one end to the other (e.g. Eb to G) the problem I cant seem to figure out is how I do it while still supporting/holding the left end of the instrument without moving the end of the instrument with my hand. I have just seen someone say they wear a cotton glove as it avoids the issue with things sticking, especially against skin. I also suspect having longer straps so the instrument can actually sit on my lap may help but people do play the instrument standing somehow? I've tried to adjust the bass strap but just can't decide what is correct.

The other questions which I mentioned above is 1) is it cheating to use one finger to press the bass note and major chord together? I do this because I have big hands and thick fingers so it's easier than trying to use 2 fingers next to each other without pressing other buttons. I could squeeze in 2 fingers if my hand is in a very precise location but any twisting up or down seems to make it impossible. 2) is it normal that I have to move my hand to play the base note and major chord or adjacent base note so the finger of the last button doesn't get in the way of the next? i.e. I struggle to leave my 4th finger on the base while I press the major chord with the 3rd straight after without moving the 4th finger out of the way at least somewhat, especially if there is any twisting up or down. I've started to do alternating bases and it emphasises this problem even more i.e. 4th, 3rd, 2nd.

Thanks a lot for everyone's input. I'm really enjoying playing so far.

 

[Tom]

Welcome Technical! Yes, I believe you will address a lot of your issues with the proper straps. Many people also use a backstrap when standing which may not solve your particular problems but will provide additional support which may help your bass side hand.

It’s definitely ok to move your hand while pushing bass and/or chord notes on the same row. I think that as you play more and get more used to left hand fingering much of your troubles will resolve themselves. As for using 1 finger for chord and bass, although this is unusual, I think it’s done, and not a problem if you like it. (Really, the fingering police will take a long time to find you, so you are free to experiment and find what works for you.).

Good luck!!!!!!

 

[Technical]

Welcome Technical! Yes, I believe you will address a lot of your issues with the proper straps. Many people also use a backstrap when standing which may not solve your particular problems but will provide additional support which may help your bass side hand.

It’s definitely ok to move your hand while pushing bass and/or chord notes on the same row. I think that as you play more and get more used to left hand fingering much of your troubles will resolve themselves. As for using 1 finger for chord and bass, although this is unusual, I think it’s done, and not a problem if you like it. (Really, the fingering police will take a long time to find you, so you are free to experiment and find what works for you.).

Good luck!!!!!!

Thank you for the reply. I suspect you may be correct from my experience so far but from playing other instruments I know I'm always conscious about going down the wrong path with a technique and having to relearn something especially as you get onto more technical stuff, not that I'm planning on becoming a professional or anything. I haven't as yet found a limitation with it but we will see I guess!

What are your thoughts on supporting the instrument on your lap? I assume this is a known good technique if done correctly but not the only way? I ask because my worry, although I may turn out to be incorrect, is that because I do have a long torso, even though it's a full size 120 bass piano accordion I may find it's too low if I adjust it so it is supported by my lap.

 

[Dingo40]

I may find it's too low if I adjust it so it is supported by my lap.

I don't know.
There's always someone to champion the "right" way...then there's the way that works for you
No matter what the right way is you will find a very impressive practitioner on YouTube doing whatever it is in totally the wrong way and making money while at it!
Some have their accordions dangling around the belly button level and still do very well musically.
See here, for example:

 

[Tom]

Thank you for the reply. I suspect you may be correct from my experience so far but from playing other instruments I know I'm always conscious about going down the wrong path with a technique and having to relearn something especially as you get onto more technical stuff, not that I'm planning on becoming a professional or anything. I haven't as yet found a limitation with it but we will see I guess!

What are your thoughts on supporting the instrument on your lap? I assume this is a known good technique if done correctly but not the only way? I ask because my worry, although I may turn out to be incorrect, is that because I do have a long torso, even though it's a full size 120 bass piano accordion I may find it's too low if I adjust it so it is supported by my lap.

As Dingo says, people find success in all ways. Speaking strictly for myself, supporting the accordion on my lap while sitting is better than supporting the accordion by the straps as if I were standing. Some people put a block under their left foot in order to raise the left leg, thereby raising the accordion.

Unfortunately, with my smaller accordion, if I have the straps set for standing, the accordion is too high for sitting (with the accordion on my lap). I would recommend you get some longer straps and see how you like it. Or try it with someone else’s first.

 

[Technical]

As Dingo says, people find success in all ways. Speaking strictly for myself, supporting the accordion on my lap while sitting is better than supporting the accordion by the straps as if I were standing. Some people put a block under their left foot in order to raise the left leg, thereby raising the accordion.

Unfortunately, with my smaller accordion, if I have the straps set for standing, the accordion is too high for sitting (with the accordion on my lap). I would recommend you get some longer straps and see how you like it. Or try it with someone else’s first.

Already got some on order as I know regardless of what the answer is I know I need some.

I found the same with ukulele, a number of correct ways for posture, strap/no strap, leg support or not etc. but after learning and trying them I just went with what worked for me which can vary between instrument sizes etc.