Newbie try to understand A7/E Dm/F

[Rong]

Can someone please help me understand what A7/E and Dm/F mean here?
I have found two versions of the same piece(Style Musette).
Left hand side of the picture is a sheet that's straight forward for me, I can just follow the pitch name to find the bass button.
But this sheet only got one page for free download.

Right hand side is the full version of the same piece but I don't understand the A7/E or Dm/F, does A7/E mean press A7 and E at the same time,
and Dm/F means press Dm and F at the same time?

Any help or tutorial to understand notes like A7/E will be much appreciated.\
Thank you.

 

[debra]

First is which chord to use and second is which base note to use. A7/E means in the rhythm you need you start with the E as base note and then use the A7 chord. Dm/F then starts with F as base note and Dm as chord.

 

[Siegmund]

As Paul said, it is specifying chord name / bass note. In the 2nd arrangement you are left to choose the bass rhythm yourself; you don't have to play them both at once; you can play D DM DM, E A7 A7, F Dm Dm in the same rhythm as the 1st arrangement if you want. (in the fourth bar, your life will be easier if you play F# counterbass, Adim Adim, or even F# D7 D7 as written in the 1st arrangement, than if you try to leap to the F#dim button.)

A lot of pop music cares very little about how the notes in a chord are distributed. A lot of classical music cared a great deal.

In your case, you'll notice that in the first arrangement, your left hand plays D, A, D, D, G, fundamental basses (plus chords.) They are the right chords but the pitches jump around.

In the second arrangement, your left hand plays D, E, F, F#, G on the downbeats of the first 5 measures, while your right hand plays F, E, D, C, Bb on the downbeats of those same measures. This produces a nice effect. As an experiment, try playing it with only the "ooms" and not the "-pa-pas", and hold those single bass notes for a bar each, so you can hear that linear motion clearly. You may find you like the effect enough that it's worth the extra effort.

 

[JeffJetton]

I whipped up a quick notation of the left hand, so you can see what we're talking about.

(Here in the States we call these "slash chords" and use the word "over" for the slash when we talk about them. As in "A7 over E" or "D minor over F")

 

[John M]

Jeff,

I like your simple straightforward Bass/Chord example. I understand your bass and chord notes except for measure 4 where the F# dim chord is shown as a Cdim chord. Is that because C is part of the F#dim chord? The true F#dim (Gbdim) would either be way up or way down for the left hand.

John M.

 

[Rong]

Really great help in understanding this, couldn't appreciate it more folks

 

[Dingo40]

Jeff,
Thanks for the trouble you have taken
but, I'm sorry, I don't get it either:
First bar: OK (DM/D).
2nd bar: A7/G ( shows as A7/E?).
3rd bar: OK (Dm/F).
4th bar: F#dim/F# (shows as Cdim/F#. (Is that a feasible stretch: six rows across plus two rows down?)
5th bar OK (Gm/G).
6th bar OK D7/A, OK..
7th bar OK.
8th bar OK
There's just enough randomness to completely throw me!
Reminds me of my first brush with computers:
My boss provided me with a used computer and told me to get on with it.
The only problem was it had a faulty hard drive and I knew nothing of hard drives or computers!
I had some interesting weeks until everyone realised what the trouble was!

 

[dunlustin]

F#dim: F#, A, C, Eb,
So any of the letter names describes the same group of notes - each a minor third apart - and effectively the same chord.
You could say the bass note defines the chord.
The F# by the D is quite close to the C row and maybe a bit closer than F# to Cdim

 

[debra]

F#dim: F#, A, C, Eb,
So any of the letter names describes the same group of notes - each a minor third apart - and effectively the same chord.
You could say the bass note defines the chord.
The F# by the D is quite close to the C row and maybe a bit closer than F to Dmin

F#dim can be played uains F#dim or Adim or Cdim or Eb dim, but not Ddim.
When you use the F# base note above D then either Cdim or Adim will work, Adim being closest.

 

[Dingo40]

Thanks, Paul: that I got!

 

[dunlustin]

So as not to confuse anyone else:
My line beginning "The F# by the D is quite..." The "F to Dmin " was a total brain scramble as Paul says - have edited it to make more sense
It refers to the Cdim being a long way from the F# primary bass - which it is.
But it is not too far from the F# in the counter bass row of D. (Siegmund lakes a very similar point.)
Good point that A is even closer.

 

[JeffJetton]

2nd bar: A7/G ( shows as A7/E?).

I have (I think) an E bass note in both the notation and the chord symbol. A G bass note would be one line up from where I have the E currently. I would not put a typo past me though!

And for Dingo40 and all the others who had questions about that pesky F#dim chord... danlustin and DeBra, correctly explained most of it. You have several choices when playing dim7 chords due to how they share notes*. A lot of the time** it is far more convenient/easy to play the root in the counter bass row rather than jump way up/down to that same button in the fundamental bass row. You can then pick a nearby compatible dim7 button. (And note that I have line under that F# bass note, which indicates that you are to play it in the counter bass.)

But this particular choice--the dim7 button that is "two floors down"--has two big advantages over all the other choices:

1. It's actually the closest dim7 button to the counter bass. It might not feel that way, but if I you crane your neck or use a mirror and look, you'll see that it's closer in physical distance to the bass button than even the dim7 button from the same floor as that bass button!
2. A true diminished 7th chord has four notes, but most accordions leave one of them out and only sound three notes when you push the button. For the Cdim7 button, the missing note is the F#. But that's the root of the chord we're after, and we're supplying it via our bass button. So by using this trick, we wind up with a fully-complete, version of the F#dim7 chord, with all four notes present and accounted for.

So not only is it easier to play compared to jumping up to the F# floor and playing the "real" F#dim7 button, it's actually a fuller and more-complete version of the chord we're after. Win-win!

BTW, in the Palmer-Hughes series, this trick is introduced in book 4, on a song called "You Tell Me Your Dream". Consequently, among me and my students, we refer to this way of playing dim7s as a "You Tell Me Your Dream Chord", or sometimes just a "Dream Diminished" chord.

- Jeff


* In fact, if you don't care about which note is the root and count inversions of a chord as being equal, there are really only three different diminished 7th chords in existence!

** Diminished chords frequently provides chromatic harmonic movement (i.e., up or down a half-step) rather than the more-common movement by fourths and fifths that is easy-peasy to handle on Stradella bass. Taking advantage of the counter basses is a tried-and-true way of managing chromaticism without having to make large leaps.

 

[dunlustin]

JeffJ
Re: "For the Cdim7 button, the missing note is the F#." That's interesting!
Does it depend on the lowest note in the left hand (ie what the inversions are) for example or could you make a rule that "The sharp fourth/flat fifth is always the note omitted"?

 

[JeffJetton]

JeffJ
Re: "For the Cdim7 button, the missing note is the F#." That's interesting!
Does it depend on the lowest note in the left hand (ie what the inversions are) for example or could you make a rule that "The sharp fourth/flat fifth is always the note omitted"?

Yup, that's the rule for most (but not all!) Stradella accordions on the chord buttons: If the chord is a four-note chord, leave out the fifth, whether it's flat or not.

So C7 will typically leave out the G. Cdim will leave out the Gb, etc.

Incidentally, this is why you can use the dim row to play minor 6th chords too. For any given root, the only note that's different between a dim7 and a m6 is that note that's left out anyway.

(The arrangement of "Fascination" in PH3 is sort of a secret example of this--only the Cdim chord is functioning as a true diminished 7th chord! The later Fdim is really acting as an Fm6, as proven by the C natural in the RH melody.)

 

[vivdunstan]

Many thanks folks for this timely discussion! I’ve just got a copy of Hal Leonard’s newly published Beautiful Songs for Accordion and it uses this notation to show different counter basses especially to use in a descending run at the start of its version of Time in a Bottle. I’d have been puzzled, despite being a long time accordionist, if I hadn’t recently read this thread! So thanks Here is the unusual counter bass sequence as I was playing it today. Just a small portion of the tune.

 

[JeffJetton]

After all that talk of the F#dim chord, I noticed something while listening to a recording of the song in question: I'm pretty sure that's not an F#dim7 chord, so my recommendation of playing it as a Cdim over F# is wrong!

If you want a straight-up F#dim triad, you could go with an Adim over F#. But to me it sounds more like a D7/F#, and that's the way I'd play it.

Granted, I might be influenced by the suspiciously similar Trio section of Pietro Frosini's "Olive Blossoms" (composed 20 years before "Style Musette"), which has essentially the same chord progression and is even in the same key! I can't help but think that Verchuren would've played it and been influenced by it. Anyway, Frosini goes with a D7/F# there as well.

And there's also Frank Marroco's song "French Toast", which is basically a contrafact of "Style Musette" in a different key. He has that chord as G7/B, which would be equivalent to D7/F# if he were in D minor.