Old Sheet Music - Two Treble Clefs

[VintageIorio]

This is the song I'm trying to learn. It is from about 1935. This sheet music is written with two treble clefs instead of treble and bass. I'm wondering if at some point in time the switch was made to print music like piano music with a treble clef for the right hand and a bass clef for the left hand.

I always had trouble reading bass clef. Treble clef was easy with F A C E and Every Good Boy Does Fine. That's the way I learned it and maybe it's even true. I was a good boy (well, pretty good) and I did fine (mostly fine).

Still today, whenever I try to read the bass clef I have to imagine the treble clef and then bump up the notes from one line to the one above or from one space to the space above. So if it looks like A on the bass clef it must really be a C. etc.

If all printed music was written with 2 treble clefs it would be easier for me. Probably not easier for others.

I'm just curious. I have another piece of music from the same era and the notation is the same.

Thanks for reading.

--Loren

 

[lasvegascolonel]

I think I could have written this letter myself as I do the exact same thing. I learned the same phrases taking lessons in Pennsylvania in the 50s. Now, starting again I have had to relearn the bass clef's G B D F A (Good Boys Do Fine Always) and A C E G (All Cows Eat Grass). I agree it would be easier to use the same note positions on both clefs. Just the other day, I was playing a G chord when it should have been a B. But for now, maybe it would help to memorize the bass clef phrases. I don't think they're going to change it for us, even though it would be easier if both clefs had the same note positions. I do not know, however, why that music had just treble clefs...maybe that was too easy to learn and they had to make it more difficult.

 

[VintageIorio]

Thanks, Colonel, for the reply. And thanks again for the All Cows Eat Grass. I never learned that one. I guess it's time to bite the bullet and learn both clefs. One other cool thing I noticed about this way of printing is not only did they spell out the chords, like C7 and Gm, there are little numbers there too. 1 for major, 2 for minor, 3 for seventh. and probably 4 for diminished (I would guess.) Anyway....fun to see some different kinds of notations.

 

[Glenn]

Interesting comments.
Coming from playing the piano I don't have this problem which then made me think. Why not?
My take on it is that the piano always gave me a linear arrangement of notes bass and treble which I could visually map onto the notes of the page.
With the accordion this is only true for the treble. The bass, as you know, is not a linear arrangement of notes but a cycle of 5ths.
I think this is much harder to map. Also the shape of the chords does not help you form them on the accordion whilst for the piano it does.
Perhaps we as forum membrs can devise a bass side musical nottion fit for purpose. Any takers?

By the way, I never used any of this F A C E or A C E G mnemonics because I simply used the alphabet
It has a pretty regular sequence of letters which we all know and love.

 

[goldtopia]

Two treble clefs is more common for piano in which the left hand moves into the treble range also the same as with two bass clefs in which the right hand moves into the bass range. I have seen it in accordion tuition books for learning the bass clef. For me, the knowledge of bass is useful for working out chords for piano music that have no chord symbols. When i was going for accordion lessons there was some music which included the bass clef for playing single notes which I think is what is used for free bass. I have never tried free bass and don't know if its any better playing that way. Reading chord symbols is easy, though jumping over many buttons takes a lot of getting used to and wonder if free bass, reading the bass clef is easier to use than jumping around on chords.

 

[Anyanka]

Interesting, I've not come across that kind of notation for accordion.

On piano, it often throws me when the left hand is written in treble clef. I've got a deep association of treble for right and bass for left hand now, and find it hard to play them the other way round.

On accordion, I prefer chord symbols, as I don't have a choice of single notes in the bass anyway! For complex bass arrangements, notation can be useful, but I prefer to write it out as, say, C/E (C chord over E note); underlined notes to indicate counterbasses; etc.

 

[goldtopia]

Single notes for a standard stradella accordion is on the first two rows.

 

[Happy girl]

<HIGHLIGHT highlight="#ffff80">[highlight=#ffff80]VintageIorio wrote: I always had trouble reading bass clef…..[/highlight]</HIGHLIGHT>

This was my handicap too until I followed the advice from the more experienced members of this forum which advocates working from the ‘The Mighty Accordion’ Book. Repeating these bass exercises over & over at my own pace until I ‘got it’ really helped.

If you want to read bass clef fluently, Mel Brays publication has to be a winner.

As an added bonus, playing along with the CD also improved my timing.

 

[Anyanka]

Single notes for a standard stradella accordion is on the first two rows.

Yes, I know - what I meant is that I dont have the choice of which single notes I put in a chord. I didnt express that clearly at all... I cant see the point in writing out the whole chord in notes when you dont actually have any control over it. Fine on piano - and on free bass - but not on Stradella.

 

[Zevy]

<FONT font=Garamond><SIZE size=125><COLOR color=#0040FF>The argument can be made for either side when it comes to notation for the left hand of the accordion. This was a debate that went on in the early days of the accordion. The need to establish a standard was addressed in the first meeting of the American Accordionists Association (AAA).

Here is a link to the outcome of that day:

http://www.zisman.ca/squeezebox/About Accordion Bass Notation.pdf[/url]

 

[lasvegascolonel]

Thanks, Zevy. It seems the "standard" was established here in the U.S. and it appears that it had already been accepted by the other countries listed there. I agree with others, though, it seems, logically, it would have been simpler to use the same note positions for both the treble and bass clefs. At minimum, it would have reduced the need to remember the notes shown are different notes depending on the clef used. As Happy Girl mentioned, there are books that concentrate on the bass note movements, and the one she highlighted is recommended highly, at least on Amazon. Thanks again, Zevy.

 

[VintageIorio]

Thank you all for your opinions, 2-cents worth and valuable insights. :ch

Special thanks to Zevy for finding out when the standard was set. Makes perfect sense. My sheet music from 1935 and 1936 were printed just before the standards were accepted. I imagine there were some lively discussions in those rooms back in that day.

I do agree with some others that it might have been easier, at least for beginners, if both clefs were the same. But probably there would have been shortcomings for the more serious professional musicians.

As a beginner I like simple. The stradella left side is simple in that once you learn a scale in C you can play it in any key by changing hand position. I think that's also how the right hand of chromatic accordions work. I think.

Learn a tune on a harmonica once. Then buy a vest full of Hohner Marine Bands and you can play the same tune in any key. Learn a few chords on the guitar and get yourself a capo and you can adjust to play with someone else that knows the song in another key.

But, yup!, best to learn both clefs. I'll be looking for the book mentioned in an earlier post.

For me this has been a fun and informative post thanks to you all.

 

[Zevy]

<FONT font=Garamond><SIZE size=125>Thank you for the interesting replies and comments. I would like to clarify one thing, and to do that from an historical perspective. The note positions were not arbitrarily created in a way that makes no sense. I was taught that the early method was to have one 10 or 11 lined staff (or stave for my friends on the other side of the pond) with middle C (or Do ) in the center (centre). That cumbersome method was cut down and reduced into two separate staves, now called the treble staff and the bass staff. All note positions follow suit, starting from middle C (Do) and ascending or descending from there. I think it all comes together in that context.
The problem arose when deciding on the proper way of writing for the accordion. It could have really gone either way.