Order of reed blocks in tone chamber

[Ignacchitti]

Hi there.

Looking for info on this unusual (at least for me) order of reed blocks in tone chamber: L reeds being behind M reeds (i.e., L being closest to the keyboard and thus farther from the bellows).
I have seen it in several Excelsior accordions (several 940, AC, etc), but so far not in other brands, but many of you have seen many more accordions inside than me.

Is this particular order more common than I thought?

I assume this would alter the general principle that L reeds sound "mellower", "darker", "deeper" (or whatever similar adjective of your choosing) than M ones. I have seen @debra mention a few examples of accordion models where M sounds mellower, not sure if this is a potential reason.

 

[debra]

Accordions with more mellow M than L reeds include the Hohner Morino models made by Excelsior and also the Gola. All of these do have the traditional cassotto configuration, with the L reeds deepest in cassotto and M reeds closet to the "exit" (the keyboard side).
So that position of M versus L reeds does not explain whether M or L is more mellow... I don't know what does...

 

[Ignacchitti]

Accordions with more mellow M than L reeds include the Hohner Morino models made by Excelsior and also the Gola. All of these do have the traditional cassotto configuration, with the L reeds deepest in cassotto and M reeds closet to the "exit" (the keyboard side).
So that position of M versus L reeds does not explain whether M or L is more mellow... I don't know what does...

Interesting.

I wonder then if having clarinet reeds further from the "exit" (as in the image above) has any predictable and consistent effect on sound then. It may not have...

Recently saw a 1970s Giulietti with this unusual configuration. Sadly so far all the cases I have seen like that were over the internet, so it's hard to tell tone exactly.

 

[debra]

Interesting.

I wonder then if having clarinet reeds further from the "exit" (as in the image above) has any predictable and consistent effect on sound then. It may not have...

...

It has a very predictable and consistent effect on the sound. If you listen carefully to the notes on the reed bank closest to the exit, you can hear that the notes on the reed block near the exit are noticeably less mellow than the notes on the block deeper inside. Typically that is the M reed bank, but there are exceptions. On a PA almost all white keys correspond to the block deeper inside and the black keys to the notes closer to the exit. On most PAs two notes on white keys have their reeds on the reed block with the black keys. (This is done to even out the number of notes on each block a bit.) If you listen very carefully you can hear that there are two white keys that sound differently from the others, but the difference is very subtle as they are always higher notes where the effect of the cassotto becomes less pronounced.) Note: do not try to find these two white keys by listening, on for instance a Hohner Morino (or Gola or some Excelsiors) because they are larger by having ALL white keys on one reed block. The Excelsior shown by Lestermann is such an example.
Some people do not hear the difference in sound at all, but most just think that the difference they do hear is because they expect sharps and flats to sound a bit different from the "natural" notes, causing songs to sound a bit differently depending on the key they are played in. But with the modern "equally tempered" tuning songs really should sound the same, independent of the key. We hear a difference because notes are on different reed blocks with slightly different timbre.
A final word of warning: once you hear the difference (which is clearest on large CBA with three reed blocks in cassotto) you cannot "unhear" it and hearing the difference may make the otherwise so lovely sound of the accordion become less enjoyable for you.

 

[Ventura]

so, an age old truth is upheld !

ignorance is Bliss

"... A final word of warning: once you hear the difference..."

 

[debra]

so, an age old truth is upheld !

ignorance is Bliss

"... A final word of warning: once you hear the difference..."

It sure is. I listen a lot to our local radio "classic.nl" which has given me inspiration for a lot of my (classical) arrangements for accordion ensemble. But each time I hear errors (knowing very well what the right notes should be, having studied different scores from imslp.org) it reduces the joy of listening to the recordings on the radio.

 

[Ignacchitti]

It has a very predictable and consistent effect on the sound. If you listen carefully to the notes on the reed bank closest to the exit, you can hear that the notes on the reed block near the exit are noticeably less mellow than the notes on the block deeper inside. Typically that is the M reed bank, but there are exceptions.

Interesting to put together this and the notions you also shared on a separate thread, coincidentally today too:

'The "bassoon" switch played one octave higher almost never sounds the same as the "clarinet" register an octave lower. This is caused mostly by the resonance chambers inside the reed blocks not being the same, and the "mass" (structural strength) of the reed block not being the same in the position where the notes are. The L and M reeds themselves are exactly the same (looking at the reeds for the same frequency). It simply is where they are and how the sound is "manipulated" by the accordion in that position that causes the difference.'

So I guess it would be safe to say that even in an accordion where the bassoon reeds are closest to the cassotto exit (contrary to the regular way of ordering the reeds), it will still have some of its unique L tone, maybe not as mellow as usual but will still retain some of its qualities. In other words, it will not sound exactly like M does (an octave lower) on an accordion where M is closest to the exit.

 

[pitzelberger]

I am owning an Excelsior AC with a configuration like this. The actual ordering of reeds in the cassotto is MLLM.

So this design does not seem to follow the idea that closeness to the keyboard alone influences the mellowness of the sound. Maybe it is also about inward versus outward orientation of the reeds?

Personally, I would say that the white L reeds have the most mellow sound. More mellow than the M reeds. But overall, the excelsior has quite a mellow sound. Some may even call it “muffled”.

 

[debra]

...

Personally, I would say that the white L reeds have the most mellow sound. More mellow than the M reeds. But overall, the excelsior has quite a mellow sound. Some may even call it “muffled”.

The white reeds are on the reed block deepest inside the cassotto so both the white L and M reeds benefit most from the cassotto. For the black keys the one inside the cassotto still benefits but the reeds closest tot the exit benefit less and therefore tend to be just a bit less mellow. People generally don't notice because they think it's because the white keys are "natural" notes and the black keys are "offset" (sharps or flats) and they forget about the cassotto position. Accordions without cassotto often have a similar difference because some reeds are "hidden" under the register mechanism.

 

[Ignacchitti]

I did get a recent chance to play my Excelsiola (LMLM reed block order) side by side with an Excelsior AC like @pitzelberger's (MLLM) and I also felt that the MLLM made the L sound mellower, even mellower than on my LMLM. Considerably. And the AC did not even have a sordino installed at the moment, whereas my Excelsiola did. Could possibly be due to other factors, not necessarily due to the reed order, but it made me wonder about the reed order.
Independently heard the same impression from the guy who takes care of my accordions.

 

[dak]

On most PAs two notes on white keys have their reeds on the reed block with the black keys. (This is done to even out the number of notes on each block a bit.)

That would change the ratio from 24/17 to 22/19. Looks tempting to move another reed over, essentially one per octave to get from 7/5 to 6/6.