Petosa Mahogany Mute

[96Bass]

This is found on the Petosa AM1100 Jazz Century Edition. LMML +0
Is this type mute common on "Jazz" accordions?
Is there a difference between LMML and LMLM ?

 

[Walker]

Hi @96Bass it seems the Jazz version is L & M in cassotto. I don't know if LMML or LMLM makes any difference though. I doubt it.

By the way...

There are some big claims made about Petosa accordions (by Petosa), such as "The AM-1100 has achieved what many thought to be no longer physically possible; what petosa considers to be the art of perfection".

As there aren't too many new (or old) Petosa's around here can someone advise - are they better than a high end Bugari (the company that builds them)? Also, where would you place the current AM1100, if you were to pick your top 5 new accordions?



The two things that seem impressive are the 10 year warranty and free maintenance for life, but I think these goodies will be factored into the initial price. Does anyone know the ballpark price for one of these AM1100s?

Here's the musette edition:



At around 6.30 mins we hear the musette sounds.

Now, some of the older AM1100s from the 1970s and 1980 etc. were quite famous for their excellent tone, and they were built by the old Zero Sette company. Are Bugari still doing as good a job on the new ones? Any thoughts appreciated...​

 

[96Bass]

I was interested at looking at the specs but the AM1100 musette version is no longer listed in current stock on their website.
It is interesting that the AM1100 has a slightly longer keyboard. 19 1/2" (20mm keys). All their other full size 41 key accordions are the typical 19 1/4" 19mm keys.

 

[96Bass]

Petosa models seem to be unique compared to their Bugari cousins. I haven't seen where you can get an identical model. There are models that are very similar but there is usually some difference. I still haven't seen any other manufacturer, Bugari included, that offers the Blue Star reeds.
My understanding is they redesigned the reed blocks to maximize the performance of the Blue Star reeds.

 

[96Bass]

I found the musette tuning spec. It is -5 / 0 / +15.
I found it on the page that shows all the models they make, including their Bayans. The high end models are usually special order.

Petosa Catalogue

North America's Premier Accordion Company Offering Sales, Service, Rentals, Accessories, Education & More

petosa.com

 

[Walker]

I was interested at looking at the specs but the AM1100 musette version is no longer listed in current stock on their website.
It is interesting that the AM1100 has a slightly longer keyboard. 19 1/2" (20mm keys). All their other full size 41 key accordions are the typical 19 1/4" 19mm keys.

Very interesting. I've had standard (20mm) keyboards all my life but I recently got a Scandalli Conservatorio BJP442 with 19mm keys. I now prefer the 19mm keys as it makes the instrument just that bit more compact and purposeful feeling. To my eye it is less rangy looking too.

Petosa models seem to be unique compared to their Bugari cousins. I haven't seen where you can get an identical model. There are models that are very similar but there is usually some difference. I still haven't seen any other manufacturer, Bugari included, that offers the Blue Star reeds.
My understanding is they redesigned the reed blocks to maximize the performance of the Blue Star reeds.

I believe Manfrini also use Bluestar reeds. There is one for sale on eBay just now and the listing states that Bluestar reeds are a feature. It's a Manfrini Artisan Cherrywood (35 keys, 3 voice, 96 bass).

 

[96Bass]

Interesting. I wonder if it was a special order. All the Artisan accordions listed on the Manfrini website show hand-finished reeds.

Accordions For Sale - Manfrini Artisan Piano Accordions

Manfrini Artisan Piano Accordions - A small production of high quality instruments finished to your own specification. From £3,750.

www.manfriniaccordions.co.uk

 

[danp76]

I was informed that the 288 Bugari’s are almost identical to an AM 1100. I believe you can select the reed brand you prefer when buying a new Bugari, not the case with Petosa, at least I don’t believe so. The Bugari dealer that I contacted does not like the BlueStar reeds in a professional chambered accordion. I found this surprising as Petosa uses them on their flagship models.

 

[Ventura]

to attain "the art of perfection" in an accordion it is implied
that collective knowledge and experience over the long term
was the means to this end

it is obviously impossible to achieve this level of knowledge
when you don't have a factory, have never actually built an
accordion in your life, and have far LESS control over the
specifications and engineering, today, than you had 30 years ago.

A: 30 years ago when Zero had their own factory, the body forms
used for Petosa AM series models were exclusive to the brand,
and so were part and parcel of the uniqueness of that brand
and those models

while refinements to the AM were incremental, as with any long-built
model from a good builder, some of those refinements were also unique
to Petosa design, engineering, and preference, like the material for
tone chambers, the tension of the keysprings, the type of internal
finish and some material differences in Varnish, density, woods used where,
thickness of cardboard, depth of angles, curvature of reflective surfaces, etc.

ALL of these refinements were lost when Zero nearly went out of business..
the body Forms being the greatest loss, and essentially irreplaceable.
BY comparison, when SEM imploded, Piermaria's owners retained the ownership
of their accordion forms and other unique tooling, which was brought to the
subsequent builder of Piermaria accordions to use, thereby preserving model
uniqueness

Bugari could be the best builder on earth, who knows, but they cannot build an AM-1000
to match the original long-lived and storied legitimate AM-1000, because for them to
reverse engineer an original AM-1000 would be cost prohibitive given the level of
business petosa can give them in a years time.. in a decades time..

indeed, the Bugari provided Petosa may in fact BE a "better" accordion that the
original am-1000 (or not) but it cannot be said to be "the art of perfection"
because of the obvious dis-connect to the original long-earned incremental
"perfecting" of the model.. it is not the same body

so the boast rings hollow to me

one thing we know for sure, Petosa has always been more of a marketing company
than a builder, and they have perfected the art of Salesmanship and storytelling to
rival Steinway for reputation and pricing..

of course the huge difference is, Steinway walks the entire walk as well
as talks the talk

and admittedly, no-one ever got anything but a great accordion from Petosa

except someone else got 3 great Excelsiors for the same money from Castiglione

 

[96Bass]

There is a used Bugari 288 Gold and a used 'pre Blue Star' AM1100 on the Petosa website. The specs look different enough to conclude that they are not the same accordion. Bugari is a 19 1/4" keyboard, Petosa is a 19 1/2 "; Bugari has Artigiana reeds, Petosa has Voci Armoniche reeds; Petosa has a one piece solid mahogany tone chamber, Bugari is not specified. The Petosa is double the price of the Bugari.
I would think the Bugari G1 may be more comparable to the AM1100, but at $16,500 USD, you won't be getting three for the price of one AM1100 .

 

[JerryPH]

As there aren't too many new (or old) Petosa's around here can someone advise - are they better than a high end Bugari (the company that builds them)? Also, where would you place the current AM1100, if you were to pick your top 5 new accordions?

When at the accordion museum, he had an AM1100 Concert Century Edition there. That was the ONLY ever Petosa that I played and I cannot tell you if it is representative of other Petosa models, but though I had fun playing the Quint system on it (fascinating!), I found the tone quality of it dull and not very exciting to listen to, though it was great feeling, fast keyboard and comfortable overall.

Using that one to judge against (and again, I don't know how fair I am being), I'd want to place it in overall points as being pretty good, but likely in 4th or 5th place from the top in that race, which is pretty good, but IMHO not worth the high price of a new one.

 

[JerryPH]

There is a used Bugari 288 Gold

I'm sure that Ed will chime up if he sees this, but he owns a gold Bugari 288. I've had the chance to play it and he and I kind of played with it inside while he replaced an errant valve that was not acting kindly.

First, the look of it is STUNNING in real life and the keyboard action is top notch. It's quite light, lighter than one would first think before picking it up and just looking at it.

Petosa has a one piece solid mahogany tone chamber, Bugari is not specified.

The 288 has no Cassotto / tone chamber (why it may be lighter than it looks?). An AM1100 and 288 are not in the same price class.

The AM1100 I played had an extended keyboard too and the Bugari is a 41 treble key unit. Of special note, the 288 does come with one feature that I feel is amazing... it comes with a second treble reed block, so one has the option of switching out a reed bank and having a much stronger French musette sound or a drier sound and it can be switched out in about 5-10 minutes on a bad day. It makes an amazing difference in versatility and in both ways the 288 sounds really good. While I prefer the more versatility of the heavier tremolo, Ed likes it, but prefers the drier sound for his playing needs.

In terms of cost, I think that the pricing of a new Petosa is just too high. Compared to similar accordions from others, they are generally several thousand dollars more for similarly spec'ed accordions from other manufacturers. I'd lean more towards other brands unless one can find a box that is heavily discounted down to the same levels as other boxes one can find elsewhere in today's market.

 

[debra]

...
The 288 has no Cassotto / tone chamber (why it may be lighter than it looks?). An AM1100 and 288 are not in the same price class.
...

The Bugari 288 is one from the "Artist Cassotto" line and definitely must have a tone chamber. I have worked on a few of these (and the smaller 96 bass one too). They do have L and M in the chamber. Although Bugari does not list it anywhere you should be able to get a Bugari 289/ARS (without the /C for convertor). I have seen them so they do exist. Of course Bugari would rather sell you a 289/ARS/C with 45-key keyboard and convertor than the same one with just standard bass... (Sometimes they list 289/ARS/C4 and 289/ARS/C5 to differentiate between the 4 and 5 voice models. If it just says /C then it is 4 voice.)
Regarding the reed manufacturer, I have seen different brands of reeds inside Artist Cassotto accordions, all from players who did not specify a preference when ordering it (and without knowing whether it is even possible to specify which reeds you want).
I am still unsure as to the benefits of blue star reeds. Two things make me hesitate: the blueing the reeds go through after initial shaping and tuning means both sides are hardened which may give the reeds a sharper sound (something you may not want in a cassotto accordion) and then Voci Armoniche specifies that the blue star reeds are cut from a 120mm wide band of steel, and cut sideways, not lenghtwise, which means they are made the same way as tipo-a-mano reeds, not the same as a-mano reeds.

 

[PhiliGol]

The 288 has no Cassotto / tone chamber (why it may be lighter than it looks?). An AM1100 and 288 are not in the same price class.

I can confirm that Bugari's 288 come with cassotto.
I haven't opened one but had the pleasure to once test a 288 Gold Plus - it was definitely a cassotto tone nicely flowing through the grille.
I personally own a 288 Essenzia which also features a cassotto.
It's equipped with Voci Armoniche reeds (cf. pic) - as per spec sheet it should be à mano - would need to leave it to the Paul to judge.
Anyway I don't care so much which manufacturer the reeds are - what convinced me to buy this accordion was (in addition to it's affordable price) mainly its sound, its handling (it's a compact model) and overall look and feel.

 

[PhiliGol]

I've actually played a Bugari G1 and I didn't like the tone - it was too bright and clear for me. That said, I think I gravitate more towards smoother, mellow sounding accordions, like the Hohner Gola and certain Scandalli and Beltuna models.​

Oh that's eventually a peaches to apple comparison.
The Gola definitely comes with the most mellow sound - the most distinctive I know.
Also certain Beltuna models (especially when they come with a very mild tremolo) have this mellow sound.
I don't know the G1 but have a 288 Essenzia and can compare that with a Hohner Gola.
Admittedly the Bugari sounded a bit more "bright" - in no case unpleasant - the 8" à cassotto may have been a bit dominant over the 8" in cassotto. Therefore I decided to install kinda 2nd cassotto - call it poor man's cassotto. That helped to dampen a bit the à cassotto voices - in particular the 8". The tremolo is very balanced now, but still you can hear a clear difference between the two 8" voices (à cassotto vs. in cassotto) - thanks to it's 15 switches it offers both voices on separate register-switches.

 

[Thomas N]

and admittedly, no-one ever got anything but a great accordion from Petosa

except someone else got 3 great Excelsiors for the same money from Castiglione

Ventura, you need to get this all down into an accordion book for posterity! This kind of information is extremely interesting to me!

I am one of those you describe in the quote above. I reached out to Petosa right around the year 2000 and you're correct about their marketing. I've never seen a packet like they sent me. Glossy accordion signed headshots of Galla-Rini, Marocco, Contino, etc. Testimonials from professional accordionists, lawyers, doctors, etc. Every brochure and picture you could ever imagine. It was so impressive. Unmatched by the simple websites of today.

In the end I couldn't justify the $14,000 price of the AM-1100. I had been talking with Jay Landers and John Castiglione and I had a custom 5/5 Excelsior 960 designed in the look of the AC (which I far preferred), top of the line handmade reeds, beautiful custom case, Sennheiser mics, and more. The total delivered to my door (over 6 months later!) was $7250. I have never regretted that decision.

I still am enamored by Petosa, because I believe they deliver a quality product that they stand by. I'm not certain the price justifies what you receive, however. And I never met a person with a Petosa that hated it.

 

[danp76]

I have a 288 Gold Plus Bugari, a 288 Silver Plus and an AM 1100 among other accordions. I think all 3 are nice, I wouldn’t say a huge difference. The AM 1100 is however from 2002, while the Bugari’s are only a few years old. I think the Bugari’s might be better equipped with double riveted Binci reeds.

 

[Ventura]

.....John Castiglione and I had a custom 5/5 Excelsior 960 designed in the look of the AC (which I far preferred), top of the line handmade reeds, beautiful custom case, Sennheiser mics, and more. The total delivered to my door (over 6 months later!) was $7250. I have never regretted that decision.


[/QUOTE]

you have an accordion that simply cannot be equaled today in my opinion,
because of the shared components and limited access to costly materials
for the accordion industry due to vastly better funded competitive
categories like Womens Shoes and Sofa's etc.

when the current companies DO opt to spend the extra for the tranched
cardboard rinsed of all impurities and the exotic kilned woods,well, you see the
astronomical pricing that results.. and does anyone actually prefer the Lucite
keytops? they are so hard ? sure they look great but...

your 960 is a lifetime accordion.. and i notice how many of the people who
have bought the recent $17,000 accordions turn around a year later and buy
a different one ? i guess those didn't turn out to BE lifetime accordions by any stretch

 

[Thomas N]

.....John Castiglione and I had a custom 5/5 Excelsior 960 designed in the look of the AC (which I far preferred), top of the line handmade reeds, beautiful custom case, Sennheiser mics, and more. The total delivered to my door (over 6 months later!) was $7250. I have never regretted that decision.

you have an accordion that simply cannot be equaled today in my opinion,
because of the shared components and limited access to costly materials
for the accordion industry due to vastly better funded competitive
categories like Womens Shoes and Sofa's etc.

when the current companies DO opt to spend the extra for the tranched
cardboard rinsed of all impurities and the exotic kilned woods,well, you see the
astronomical pricing that results.. and does anyone actually prefer the Lucite
keytops? they are so hard ? sure they look great but...

your 960 is a lifetime accordion.. and i notice how many of the people who
have bought the recent $17,000 accordions turn around a year later and buy
a different one ? i guess those didn't turn out to BE lifetime accordions by any stretch
[/QUOTE]

So true, Ventura. I believe John Castiglione told me it was one of the last true Excelsiors to come from the factory before complete turnover. I could be incorrect, however. It's been a long time.

The issue with the 960 is weight. It's an absolutely gorgeous instrument and the sound is unparalleled. It's 30+ pounds with straps and even with a backstrap it's very heavy. I think coming from so many hours of the FR-8X that the transition to the heft is noticeable.

I don't think I'll ever sell it, but who knows? Maybe a lighter 96 bass 37 key is in my future.

 

[96Bass]

to attain "the art of perfection" in an accordion it is implied
that collective knowledge and experience over the long term
was the means to this end

it is obviously impossible to achieve this level of knowledge
when you don't have a factory, have never actually built an
accordion in your life, and have far LESS control over the
specifications and engineering, today, than you had 30 years ago.

A: 30 years ago when Zero had their own factory, the body forms
used for Petosa AM series models were exclusive to the brand,
and so were part and parcel of the uniqueness of that brand
and those models

while refinements to the AM were incremental, as with any long-built
model from a good builder, some of those refinements were also unique
to Petosa design, engineering, and preference, like the material for
tone chambers, the tension of the keysprings, the type of internal
finish and some material differences in Varnish, density, woods used where,
thickness of cardboard, depth of angles, curvature of reflective surfaces, etc.

ALL of these refinements were lost when Zero nearly went out of business..
the body Forms being the greatest loss, and essentially irreplaceable.
BY comparison, when SEM imploded, Piermaria's owners retained the ownership
of their accordion forms and other unique tooling, which was brought to the
subsequent builder of Piermaria accordions to use, thereby preserving model
uniqueness

Bugari could be the best builder on earth, who knows, but they cannot build an AM-1000
to match the original long-lived and storied legitimate AM-1000, because for them to
reverse engineer an original AM-1000 would be cost prohibitive given the level of
business petosa can give them in a years time.. in a decades time..

indeed, the Bugari provided Petosa may in fact BE a "better" accordion that the
original am-1000 (or not) but it cannot be said to be "the art of perfection"
because of the obvious dis-connect to the original long-earned incremental
"perfecting" of the model.. it is not the same body

so the boast rings hollow to me

one thing we know for sure, Petosa has always been more of a marketing company
than a builder, and they have perfected the art of Salesmanship and storytelling to
rival Steinway for reputation and pricing..

of course the huge difference is, Steinway walks the entire walk as well
as talks the talk

and admittedly, no-one ever got anything but a great accordion from Petosa

except someone else got 3 great Excelsiors for the same money from Castiglione

Ventura, When I read your post you referenced AM-1000, but for some reason my brain went to AM-1100. Petosa still makes the AM-1000 but the AM-1100 appears to be their current top-line "production" model. They make higher end models than the AM-1100 which are found on their catalog page. These appear to be special order and not production models.
You seem to have a lot of accordion history knowledge and have known some of the top influencers in the American accordion community.
I don't know if you ever have in a post, but I would be interested to read your biography and how you became so knowledgeable about the history of the accordion and manufacturers/distributors in America.

Petosa Catalogue

North America's Premier Accordion Company Offering Sales, Service, Rentals, Accessories, Education & More

petosa.com