Please help to choose my first accordion

[Gabonez]

Hello,

My name is Gabriel and I ask for your help. I am a beginner and I am looking for a 120 bass piano second-hand accordion(budget around $500). My desire is to learn to play eastern europe folklor music and cafe-concert.
Please advise me in choosing my first accordion from below options or recommend me anything else related to my interests:

1. Dallape Coronet 120 bass - good condition -$550;
2. Hohner Verdi III M 120 bass- good condition -$500;
3. Italian Charon Freres 120 bass- good condition -$400;
4. Rauner 140 bass- good condition -$350;

Thank you!

 

[debra]

All four these instruments look at least 20 years (more likely 30 to 40 years) too old to be worth considering to actually use them "as is" as a first accordion. You should really be looking at instruments that are younger, and you should definitely NOT buy something on-line or anything you cannot meet the vendor for and try thoroughly before buying.
For these instruments "good condition" at best means that it is not completely falling apart. You have already seen that even "mint condition" can mean there are missing parts and the instrument can be 60 to 70 years old.
People are really trying to dump accordions that have absolutely no economic value any more (meaning repair costs more than it's worth) and ask money that is even too much if the instrument is still really in good condition!
Really, I mean it, DO NOT GO THIS ALONE. You need advice from an actual human expert looking at the actual accordions. Do NOT buy on-line based on just pictures.
I do follow the used accordion market here (where accordions are not really bought on-line but tried and picked-up in person) and what you show are not serious offers of instruments that are truly in good condition (if only because of their age) and for a price of around 500 you must be able to do better, with help from knowledgeable friends.

 

[RodionGork]

I dare to add to the very correct words above my personal experience.

See, I'm also beginner and decided to learn a bit of accordion. I decided to start with "second-hand" instruments also, so now I have three old accordions to play them with files, screw-drivers, knives, dremel and other tools, repairing and tuning gradually. I like this process, but probably it would not be same for you. So briefly here is what I've found:

1) There is no way to say by photo or brand that "the first of your choices is better than the third". People who sell them usually mean by "good condition" quite various things - but usually "looks good to me, probably may serve as a decorative element".

2) The only real "good condition" for instrument of 20-70 years could be if it was repaired and tuned recently. So you may ask the seller "when and who gave a due service to this device?" If they say they don't know or "no one played it in 50 years at all" - you can say "thanks" and leave.

3) If the seller says that necessary service was provided during last year... Well... And do not lie... Ask for video where seller presses each key in sequence and push-pulls the bellows.

4) Most often flaws are: keys do not give equal sound on push and pull, there are awkward sounds (clapping) inside, keys do not give sound at all on either push or pull. Or it is clogged. Testing for left side is somewhat more complicated. But at least major chords should sound major and minor should sound minor.

5) If you are not sure, really, ask for help. If you got video, you can share it here, I believe. Photos from the inside also are usually more helpful.

BTW it is not quite clear what do you mean by "beginner". Perhaps you already know how to test the device yourself and have an absolute pitch. On the other hand it is not quite clear whether you really need full-size accordion. Are you going to learn "at home" with visiting tutor, or enlist to some musical college? So could you provide more details about your goals and possible options?

 

[Gabonez]

Really, I mean it, DO NOT GO THIS ALONE. You need advice from an actual human expert looking at the actual accordions. Do NOT buy on-line based on just pictures.

I allready had a bad experience and now I found somebody who promise that he will come with me. Thank you for your advice!

BTW it is not quite clear what do you mean by beginner. Perhaps you already know how to test the device yourself and have an absolute pitch. On the other hand it is not quite clear whether you really need full-size accordion. Are you going to learn at home with visiting tutor, or enlist to some musical college? So could you provide more details about your goals and possible options?

Thank you for your answers and sorry for incomplete info. Please find below more info:

-I am a very beginner who is motivated to learn with a proffesional teacher.
-I do not know how to test but somebody will come with me.
-I am looking for a good shape and complete instrument suitable for eastern europe traditional music and cafe-concert( sorry if my english is not correct). Here I need your recommandation regarding the required registers for this kind of music.
-I would choose 120 in order not to change the instrument in the early future.

Now, more specifications for my first options:

1. Dallape Coronet-attuned and revised from a to z by the seller...
2. Hohner Verdi IIIM -attuned and cleaned 3 months ago by a friend
3. Freres-attuned and revised by the seller...
4. Rauner-not played from years but kept in conditions

 

[Corsaire]

Hi Gabriel
Instead of buying an accordion straight away, have you considered hiring one ? That way you can try different instruments - you may even find that a smaller accordion would suit you better to start with.
If you are going to have lessons, you might be better to wait so that you can discuss with your teacher the sort of accordion best suited for you. This really should be done face to face, even if you can get some excellent advice on this forum !

Just a reminder about the warning from Wout about buying through internet :
https://www.accordionists.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4386[/url]

 

[JerryPH]

if these were the last 4 accordions on earth, here iare a couple of my opinions:

First, it is 100% impossible to not play an accordion for years and it be in good condition. If an accordion is not played regularly, it deteriorates... no exception. That and the fact that the narrow black keys make playing more difficult and it being the oldest accordion here eliminates the Rauner from the list right away. BTW, I do not think the Rauner is worth more than $100-$150.

That Charron Freres accordion is a much less known brand and parts, if anything breaks is going to be near impossible to find. Now, this is only my opinion, but green is a terrible colour. Even if it was in excellent condition, I would not pay more than $250-$300 for this one. For me this eliminates this accordion.

Dallape and Hohner are both good names, with the edge going to the Dallape, however, there were way more Verdi III sold and parts would be easier to find. Just by the irregular key height and spacing would I say that the Hohner Verdi is not in good condition and judging by the photo it is a 1950's model.

The last one is the Dallape. It is the most "modern" of the group, the best build quality and likely the best sound, however all of this is just guessing because, as we all know, it is impossible to see the true condition of an accordion because first we cannot see any pictures of the inside, as the condition of the reeds and valves, the mechanisms, the bellows and the tune, if done by someone very skilled using proper tools, are the true definition of an accordion, more than what it looks like.

An accordion might look good outside and be totally unplayable thanks to neglect, rusted reeds or poor quality repair work done in the past. Bad repair work is often harder and more costly to repair than age and neglect.

As mentioned, if you yourself are not knowledgeable about accordions, take someone that is... not just someone that can play an accordion, but someone that has repair and tuning experience, someone that will be able to open the accordion and look inside and evaluate the condition of the reeds and valves.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[RodionGork]

Hi again, Thanks for details!

Lets see:

-I am a very beginner who is motivated to learn with a proffesional teacher.

Aha, thats a good idea! By the way, do you have previous experience in music?

-I do not know how to test but somebody will come with me.

Thats great news. I dare say, you then can choose any of the options. The most important for you now is to get accordion which will serve good for your exercises - and this will be mostly determined while testing. It is less related with brands (especially if brands are old).

It would be also good if the sellers allow moneyback or some other kind of guarantee.

-I am looking for a good shape and complete instrument suitable for eastern europe traditional music and cafe-concert( sorry if my english is not correct). Here I need your recommandation regarding the required registers for this kind of music.
-I would choose 120 in order not to change the instrument in the early future.

Well... These instruments with full keyboard... The main issue with them (for me) is they are large. They can weigh 9-11 kg I suspect. For my height of 170 cm it is bit too high when playing sitting.

Meanwhile you will rarely (if ever) have need for upper and lower end of the keyboard, given your choice of traditional music and cafe-concert. This means you may choose the 3/4 size accordion, with 34 keys (instead of 41). They are usually about 7kg and several inches shorter. It would be good to consult with the teacher who is going to teach you, but I think 3/4 accordion will serve you well for years.

As about bass buttons - it could be 80 or even 72 (though the more the better). Not extremely important because with playing traditional music you will usually be free to choose scale which places your fingers in the middle. More important is that there are 5 (or perhaps better 6 rows, with diminished chords).

Instruments with even smaller keyboard (e.g. 1/2 size of 24-26 keys) probably should not be regarded. Two octaves is bit too short even for some popular pieces and songs.

As about registers. This is not utterly important, but may be handy. I believe having 3 reeds in the right side would be good and enough. Often they have 5 switches here. This allows you to shift octave lower sometimes. Instruments with 4 reeds (they often may have about 11 switches) may be regarded as more professional (more expensive, more complicated and weigh more) - and probably their benefits are unimportant for your goals.

Registers in the left hand - it would be good to have them, mostly as a mean to manipulate the volume and air consumption (they disable several of 4-5 bass reeds). E.g. you may play with lower register switch at home, while with master outdoors or in the large hall. And probably more important - to keep volume balance with the right side. But no special significance for your goal also.

The last one is the Dallape. It is the most modern of the group, the best build quality and likely the best sound,

Having that many switches it looks like being 4-reeds instrument. And given full size - Im a bit suspicious it is sold for mere $500, if it is really in excellent condition.

Instead of buying an accordion straight away, have you considered hiring one ?

I readily agree!

 

[donn]

-I am looking for a good shape and complete instrument suitable for eastern europe traditional music and cafe-concert( sorry if my english is not correct). Here I need your recommandation regarding the required registers for this kind of music.

A very good question; as it is evident that no one here knows, maybe you can find some clues online. The wikipedia reed ranks and switches reference may help. Youll have to develop an ear for what you want to sound like, in terms of the effects available with these registers. My guess is that your genre will tend to use an MH oboe setup with no musette de-tuning, just straight pitch. (A pox on the stupid names, by the way - the sound is nothing like an oboe and these names only serve to obscure whats going on, but unfortunately theyre common in English speaking countries. With MH Im using a relatively transparent nomenclature where M stands for Medium and H for high; theres also an L for Low.)

 

[debra]

...Youll have to develop an ear for what you want to sound like, in terms of the effects available with these registers. ...

MH may be a problem. For a very limited budget you can only hope to find an LMM instrument in good condition. To get MH you most likely need an LMMH instrument and such instrument with 120 bass, not so old that it cannot be played without significant overhaul first,... this will be difficult for 500.
I do see things like a Hohner Verdi III N occasionally (the N is important to get an instrument that isnt falling apart from old age) and that is about the best one can get for a budget of 500.

 

[JerryPH]

Here I need your recommandation regarding the required registers for this kind of music.

A very good question; as it is evident that no one here knows, maybe you can find some clues online.[/quote]

Donn, for European folk music (a very general term), its not that no one here doesnt know, its because in the beginning, it really isnt all that important. As a beginner, I can play a polka, waltz or tango in any register and it will serve well enough. Yes, a French waltz sounds better using a musette register, but if your accordion doesnt have one, that doesnt mean he cannot play a French waltz.

Think like a beginner, and ask yourself the question again... what registers should your accordion have to be able to play European folk music? It doesnt matter, however, if it has a master, violin or musette and perhaps clarinet, youve covered pretty much everything you need for the next 5 years at the very least, possibly even forever. So, how many registers does he need?

IMHO, only one good one, anything else is gravy. {}

If what he is asking is how many reeds does he need... that is a little more of an easier question and I would say that based on the accordions hes chosen, a minimum of (right/left) 3/4 is recommended. I doubt he could find a 4/5 or a 5/5 that is anywhere close to functional for $500.

As far as tuning, closer to basic is safer, especially for a beginner. Unless he lives in France or the UK, I would recommend not going the full musette or heavy Scottish tunings.

A pox on the stupid names, by the way...

I love expressions like this, you just dont ever hear them here in Canada... lol

 

[donn]

Register setup is of course subject to some regional variation. I have the impression that LMH was actually a common setup in the US at one point, where of course Im sure it would be most unpopular in France for example.

Think like a beginner, and ask yourself the question again... what registers should your accordion have to be able to play European folk music? It doesnt matter, however, if it has a master, violin or musette and perhaps clarinet, youve covered pretty much everything you need for the next 5 years at the very least, possibly even forever. So, how many registers does he need?

I am no judge of what someone else needs, and I dare say you arent either. He asks what registers are appropriate to the type of music hes interested in, and while we obviously dont know, I think we can help with some clues. In the end, he may be wrong about whether its important, but then again it may be as important as anything else about the accordion - how can you maintain any enthusiasm for learning an instrument, when the sound it makes is rather at odds with anything youre interested in?

A pox on the stupid names, by the way...

I love expressions like this, you just dont ever hear them here in Canada... lol[/quote]
Nor here in the US, but I hope it serves anyway.

I found the following in an Ikes Accordions article on Used Accordions -- A Survival guide

Later on in the last half of the 1900s LMMH, LMH, and LM became more popular reed arrangements, than the MM, LMM, and LMMM, but then more players in the 1980s to present started demanding musette capability, so the LMH and LM reed configurations fell out of favor, and are now very rarely made.

So if hes right there, these older accordions might be more likely to have an H register, though again it depends very much on regional taste - players in Eastern Europe very likely never did start demanding musette capability, and I bet its a large enough market that the Italians were able to accommodate them.

Anyway, the key point is to become aware if thats important to the desired sound, and consider that factor when buying.

 

[JerryPH]

Register setup is of course subject to some regional variation. I have the impression that LMH was actually a common setup in the US at one point, where of course Im sure it would be most unpopular in France for example.

... or Scotland where the musette is so prominent that its almost severe. And by the way, please dont think that I am attacking your opinions, just sharing in the conversation.

I am no judge of what someone else needs, and I dare say you arent either.

Well, being of Czech origin (Eastern Europe), I might have a clue, but no, I am not a mind reader nor can I tell what the OPs future prefernces are. They may turn in to a Morne, a UKer with strong French music style preferences.

He asks what registers are appropriate to the type of music hes interested in, and while we obviously dont know, I think we can help with some clues.

And I am sure you did.

Nor here in the US, but I hope it serves anyway.

Well, it perfectly expressed what you felt with the added bonus of putting a smile on my face!

So if hes right there, these older accordions might be more likely to have an H register, though again it depends very much on regional taste - players in Eastern Europe very likely never did start demanding musette capability... Anyway, the key point is to become aware if thats important to the desired sound, and consider that factor when buying.

Agreed, but a more precise knowledge of where in Eastern Europe the OP is located and what styles he prefers, will result in a bit easier to pin-point sounds/styles and registers. France, Germany, Poland and Belarus are all beside each other on the eastern side and have wildly different folk music as well as different preferred sounds.

 

[donn]

Agreed, but a more precise knowledge of where in Eastern Europe the OP is located and what styles he prefers, will result in a bit easier to pin-point sounds/styles and registers. France, Germany, Poland and Belarus are all beside each other on the eastern side and have wildly different folk music as well as different preferred sounds.

Romania, as I understood it, a good ways to the east of France. My guess on the typical sound of the area was more from a very superficial familiarity with accordion music from nearby slavs in Macedonia / Serbia - I know Romania is quite distinct, but that music would I think be familiar anyway and might call for a similar timbre. The Romanian keyboard stuff Ive actually heard has typically been not accordion, but an electronic keyboard set up to sound like a cembalom - not really within reach of a reed box.

 

[Gabonez]

Dear friends,

I feel overwhelmed, excited and very fortunate to receive so relevant answers. If a month ago I knew nothing about accordions now I can not wait to learn more and more. Thank you all for your help and I hope in time to make myself a valuable addition to this community. Until then, to be more specific in the music that I want to learn, please find below a sample of the music that I love from my country, Romainia.



Gabriel

 

[Morne]

Though not a valid reason for picking it, old boxes like that Rauner sure look pretty to me.

That Dallape is most likely LMH. Here is an example:

Like others have said an LMM or LMMH would be the best, since it will cover more genres. The main question for you is to decide whether you like the MM tuning on a specific accordion.

Cafe-concert sounds like it might be something French, at least thats the only context Im aware of when referring to accordion cafe music. If that is the case, youd definitely want at least an MM register in there.

If you mean Eastern Europe more in the direction of Russian or Ukraine, you might find the H register is not really used much in folk music. The traditional accordion instruments there are dry-tuned MM on the bayan and a light tremolo MM or LMM on the garmon. I know youre looking at piano accordions, but that might give you an idea of the registers they use.

I also agree that a 34-37 treble with 72-96 bass will probably be enough if you cannot find a full size accordion. My first accordion is an LMM 37/80 which I find more than adequate for Russian folk music (it covers the range of a garmon). The MM tuning is a bit wet since its an Italian box, but I like it.

They may turn in to a Morne, a UKer with strong French music style preferences.

Thats maugein96. Im not from the UK and I havent the slightest idea about French music.

 

[JerryPH]

Several years ago I spent almost a whole month in Romania mostly visiting and travelling around. Lots of accordions there, almost always found a busker or street musician around in the busier parts of whatever city or town I passed though. Romania is funny in that it more readily accepts outside influences more than other places I have visited. For example if you were in Timisoara, you would get a lot of Hungarian influence in the music and it was really obvious, but not so much so in Bucharest. Bucharest was my favorite as it was the most open and fun town that I experienced on the trip... there used to be a bar in what I was told was "Old Town", mostly Gypsies went there, lots of music, all the time. I wish I could recall the name.

From what I recall, they mostly liked the higher pitched registers, but not"H" high... musette, clarinet, violin. Not just in Bucharest, but everywhere that I can think of that I went and heard accordions. It was the kind of music that I found generally very fatiguing over time, a lot of it sounded similar to my ears... lots of fast notes and a hard to nail down melody, almost Arabic in music style at times... does that make sense?

I also found other places that played a greater variety of music other than the harsh Gypsy style, and my favorites in that genre were the slower "love songs" that I liked. They were often sad sounding and always poignant and touching. Again, mostly clarinet and musette registers. I can't recall if I ever heard an accordion in master or bassoon during my time there... lol

So, definitely, if you are wanting to play the kind of music that I heard back then, you are not likely looking for an accordion with LMH, but LMM and a nice, but not aggressive tune. I'd have to say that a standard tune with light musette is what I mostly heard, very little to no French musette style of tuning and *definitely* nothing more extreme anywhere.

 

[donn]

Until then, to be more specific in the music that I want to learn, please find below a sample of the music that I love from my country, Romainia.

Thank you, thats delightful, I find it inspiring myself - it would take a lot of skill to play like that, but it sounds fun too. Especially if you have someone to play along on bass and cembalom. One M voice? It sure isnt the Macedonian/Serbian sound I was thinking of and my LMH idea seems to have been off target. The style reminds me a lot of a woodwind, like clarinet or taragot.

 

[Stephen Hawkins]

Dear Gabonez,

I am not going to advise you on specific makes or tuning for your accordion, but I will just say that your approach will only serve to confuse you even more.

Go to a reputable dealer ........ someone you can trust to give you sound advise. He (or She) will allow you to try a number of accordions, and assist you in finding one that you will be happy with.

I play in Folk Clubs, and do not feel the need to use an instrument above 72 Bass (with 34 keys). You need to walk before you can run, and I truly believe you are in danger of adding unnecessary complexity to your choice of instrument.

With all due respect and admiration for all those who have offered you advice, you will ultimately discover that there are as many opinions on this site as there are people. In the end, the choice is entirely yours to make.

 

[Gabonez]

Hello to everybody,

Thank you for your support and please forgive the delay in my response. A lot to do in uncertain days but the accordion is becoming more present in my concerns.
I owe you an update: I decided to pay $250 for a good condition 96 Hohner Verdi II N, not so good looking but very clean inside and complete. Paul De Bra recommended it in older posts and I am happy now with this deal. Thanks Paul :tup:

On the other hand, on next Monday I will start my lessons with a professional teacher

Regards,
Gabrie

 

[debra]

Hello to everybody,

Thank you for your support and please forgive the delay in my response. A lot to do in uncertain days but the accordion is becoming more present in my concerns.
I owe you an update: I decided to pay $250 for a good condition 96 Hohner Verdi II N, not so good looking but very clean inside and complete. Paul De Bra recommended it in older posts and I am happy now with this deal. Thanks Paul :tup:

On the other hand, on next Monday I will start my lessons with a professional teacher

Regards,
Gabrie

All the best with your new accordion! Good choice!