Questions about celluloid

[KiwiSqueezer]

I wish to harvest some celluloid from the aluminium front cover/grille panel of a defunct 1950s accordion.

Q1. Can anyone suggest a good - and safe - way to break the bond twixt celluloid and aluminium?

Q2. What adhesive would have been used in manufacture, and what is used these days?

Q3. Am I right in thinking that 'celluloid', as used on an accordion, is essentially cellulose acetate, not a cellulose nitrate-based material?

There's so much to learn about these fascinating machines! Having dived into accordion restoration, I find that the engineering knowledge that I have is useful, but accordions seem to be from a different planet...

 

[Walker]

Celluloid seems to be a wonderful, decorative material from the mid to late 1800s that has been abandoned in many industries (by the mid 1900s) - except accordion manufacture etc. I love the lustre of celluloid on an accordion more than any other finish (wood finish is a close second for me). Apparently, celluloid is highly flammable, which might be the reason there is a decline in it's use nowadays.

I too would like to learn more about it's specific composition in accordions...​

 

[KiwiSqueezer]

Re Q3, I think I'm wrong. It seems likely that the 'celluloid' used on accordions is/was the true cellulose nitrate celluloid. I'll take appropriate care in view of its extreme flammability. However, in this case, it prompts Q4: is cellulose nitrate celluloid classed as a 'dangerous material' by postal services? Does this make it difficult to obtain from overseas sources, or is the stuff sold internationally by accordion parts and materials suppliers something different?

 

[Ventura]

i don't think it is a problem as that type was only used before WW2 on accordions
and is noticeably different from post WW2 celluloid
(thinner, it often shrinks, cracks, and can also loses it's bond)
i remember it in Grey, Black and Green mostly. Excelsior still had some stock of original
sheets for repair work but i don't if they still have it.

AFAIK this shares chemistry with old Motion Picture Film reels and has
the same/similar handling and preservation guidelines/concerns

 

[Dingo40]

Am I right in thinking that 'celluloid', as used on an accordion, is essentially cellulose acetate, not a cellulose nitrate-based material?

Celluloid is chemically processed cellulose ( a plant cell-wall material) further processed by adding camphor: it is, essentially a camphor-nitro cellulose mix.
See here:
"cel·lu·loid ˈsel-yə-ˌlȯid
: a tough flammable thermoplastic composed essentially of cellulosenitrate and camphor"
In bulk ( as a motion picture film base), it is prone to decomposition and spontaneous ignition. Nitrocellulose being highly inflammable (it was , and is, used as a component in smokeless "gunpowder " production ) added to the fact that in utilising the celluloid in manufacturing involves the use of harmful solvents, and the advent of substitutes, it's use has been largely discontinued.
The operatives who applied celluloid to accordions were exposed to such solvents through direct to skin contact and breathing in of solvent fumes.
The method of application (in making accordions) was to soften cut to measure sheets of celluloid in tubs of solvent (acetone) and smooth these in place to the raw timber surfaces as appropriate, excess
material being cut away during the application with a sharp knife or scissors .
The celluloid adhered to the accordion components without the need of further adhesives.
There's a recent post illustrating the operation.
See here:

How they coat your accordion in celluloid in about 2 minutes!🙂

This reminds me: Prior to my gall bladder operation I watched a very slick video of a superstar surgeon whipping out a gall bladder in about 12 minutes with scarcely a drop of blood shed.🙂 He made it look like day surgery!😄 However, when it came to my own case, I was under the anaesthetic for...

www.accordionists.info

Recently, I came across several large sheets of celluloid at a trash and treasure shop in marbled shades of grey.
I'm kicking myself for not having purchased it while I had the chance!
The celluloid coating on my various accordions ( one at least 80 years old, and not particularly well treated before I got it) shows no signs at all of deterioration or spontaneous ignition.

 

[danp76]

Can you sand and apply automotive paint and body fillers over celluloid? This would make repairs a bit easier in some cases.

 

[Dingo40]

Can you sand and apply automotive paint and body fillers over celluloid? This would make repairs a bit easier in some cases.

I imagine you would be able to do that as cellluloid was similar in composition to the car ducos in use before they went acrylic.

 

[debra]

Can you sand and apply automotive paint and body fillers over celluloid? This would make repairs a bit easier in some cases.

You can but you might have problems achieving exactly the same color after the repair.
Repairing celluloid with celluloid is actually pretty easy, but it requires that you have new celluloid (or take some from a different part of the accordion, like under a bellows protector) and acetone and a lot of patience.

 

[Dingo40]

Applying celluloid to your accordion in Brazil:

Some sort of glue seems to be in use:

 

[32251]

I work with celluloid a lot in guitar repair. Back in the day, celluloid was extensively used for bindings and inlays. If you want to know if your accordion is indeed real nitro then just sand a little on a unseen area and smell it. It will have a spicy smell. These days, all the guitar bindings are mostly abs plastic. Nitro celluloid is repaired by taking a piece that is close in color and letting it dissolve in acetone. Make a paste and fill dents and cracks. Let dry and sand and buff. Careful with the flammable issue.

 

[Walker]

Here's a new YouTube video all about celluloid and the accordion:

 

[KiwiSqueezer]

Walker, that's really useful! Thank you for sharing the YouTube link.

Now, if someone could tell me how to remove celluloid from aluminium, in order to 'harvest' some vintage material, I could progress...

 

[Walker]

Now, if someone could tell me how to remove celluloid from aluminium, in order to 'harvest' some vintage material, I could progress...​

Sorry @KiwiSqueezer I wouldn't know where to begin with harvesting vintage celluloid!

I'm actually having difficulty finding a colour of new celluloid for my next accordion...

Ever since my earliest days I was fascinated by accordions finished in celluloid. My first accordion was a pearloid red Hohner Concerto III but since then virtually every accordion I have owned has been in "classic" black. However, I would really like to add a splash of colour to my next instrument. As I am quite old fashioned I prefer traditional celluloid over painted finishes. I notice most accordion factories stick to blue, white, red or black but I have seen some unusual purple and green instruments. However, my favourite by far was a toffee brown Cooperfisa I saw several years ago. It looked a lot like this one:



However, when I looked on Carini DE.NA they don't have that same toffee hue celluloid option. They do a new "bronze" colour but it's not the same. Also, I understand Mazzucchelli don't make celluloid in Italy any more. Celluloid production seems to be largely a Chinese industry now.

I guess I should have snapped up the toffee accordion when I had the chance... ah bittersweet memories.​

 

[JKJ]

Here's a new YouTube video all about celluloid and the accordion:

Yes, thank you for that! It is quite an introduction/education. (and I’m thankful it was in English. )

JKJ

 

[kimric]

I found that just getting under the edge of it with a knife and peeling it seems to work fine.
There is some sort of watery adhesive applied just before the application of the celluloid. This was the case at both Weltmeister and at the factory in Tula that I observed. . I have some celluloid sheets though nothing much over 12" if people need stuff for repairs.

 

[Theo]

If anyone in the UK wants celluloid I have a few kg of celluloid sheets that came from the Hohner/Bell stock in Surbiton.