Ranco Guglielmo Super Bernard with Cassotto

[Notario]

Hey guys,

So, as discussed in my presentation topic, I've got an antiquity that I would like you, if possible, to help me deciphering. Note that I have little knowledge about an accordion interior. Be aware than I don't master de technical terms and will probably use wrong denominations, so I would be glad if you correct me and teach the good terms.
For a little story, I bought this accordion around 2008 or 2009, at a little accordion tuner in a small remote village in the north of Portugal. The guy is actually super known in the region and all north of the country, having the most known diatonic accordion player of Portugal going to his place to buy, repair and tune accordions.
Anyway, I bought that "machine" that was in a not so good condition in the exterior, but oh boy the magnificent sound it did. I literally fell in love for that accordion and convinced my parents (was around 13 back then) to buy it. Noting that I was coming from a 2 voice Paolo Soprani.
Story that he told was that the accordion was built around 1950' ~ 1960'. It was ordered by the music house of Geneva, directly from Ranco factory. Not knowing how, it ended up in a family in France that let the accordion somewhere in a basement with no protection or carrying box, whitout ever being used. It was considered as "something there taking space", that people would push around with their feet to make some space. The accordion tuner guy then bought it because he knew someone who knew the owners that wanted to get rid of if.
He said it was a 4 voice Ranco, with a very special tuning (back in the time he said the accordion had a "resonance box"). The accordion was playing AMAZING indeed, even though the buttons were not all at the same height and "softeness" pressing down.

Anyways, I've had it and played ever a lot in it ever since. 4 years ago I bought a Maugein 4 voice musette tuned (that I will present in another topic), in prestine condition, that I've been using to play in order to preserve the Ranco. I intend now to do a full restoration, even if it's going to take years. I would really like to make this project by myself.

In order to begin to understand this accordion, I've been reading quite a bit about Accordion construction and mecanics, trying to understand the possible variations and how to, for example, know for sure how many voices it can have. I've opened my Ranco and in the "normal space", theres 2 holes per button, which represents 2 voices. Now, whitout beeing sure, I'm conviced that theres also 2 voices in the cassotto, and not only 1. I've got two reasons to think that :

- Buy changing the registers, I can clearly go from 1 voice, then add 1 more, add 1 more, and add the fourth one on top, which clearly indicates the 4 voices are present indeed, even though it only has 5 different register positions ;
- When I change from the 1 voice register to the 2 voice register (that's what I think by earing), I can see a plate moving behind in the cassotto.
I can clearly ear 1 bass (16' ?) only with 1st register position, and with the 2nd voice register, there's what I think eather a medium or a piccolo added to the bass. With the 1st or the 2nd register position, the holes in the front are both closed. Then I operate the 3 register lever and one of the holes opens in the front. And with the 4 voice register, the two holes are open in the front.

So the only things that makes me doubtful of this fourth voice, is the fact that the accordion has "only" 5 reed boxes in total. 3 in normal position, and 2 in the cassotto thing. In internet there's a lot of saying that a button accordeon has to have at least 6 or 7 of those to be a fourth voice, and then this makes me doubt of my ear and my view of the mecanics. Of course, for now I don't dare to try to open stuff in the cassotto, not wanting to break or out-tune anything. That's why I was hoping that you guys can help me with confirming these doubts.
Also, I guess the bass are 3 voice, but again if you could help, it would be amazing.

Some photos are attached (for example what I call the "holes in the front"). I hope it's going to be good like this. The others will be in the links in the spoilers :

Spoiler: treble side interior

Spoiler: bass side interior

https://imgur.com/Tc0m8b0
https://imgur.com/epqcdqH
https://imgur.com/W7Fg7Nt
https://imgur.com/rfwlM9T
https://imgur.com/Ga9n6FG
https://imgur.com/NtbIiFd
https://imgur.com/ObnTcmT

I thank you all in advance. My best regards,

Notario

Edit: Of course I forgot but it would be very appreciated if you could also give an overall opinion about the condition inside. I can ear clearly that the accordion after 10 years of a lot of use needs to be tuned. I think also a lot of springs have to be replaced because the butons are not all in the same condition and it's not so confortable to play with it as it was in the begining.

 

[Ignacchitti]

Beautiful accordion and story
Seems in very nice shape, though you are right about it probably needing a good tuning!

The bass side has 5 voices, even though it has only 3 register switches. Each voice is a set of the twelve notes, and here each voice is in a different octave. The 3 registers are simply combinations of those 5 voices. You could just as well have 5 or 10 registers or however many combinations or single isolated voices there are.

Treble side seems to me 4 voices. Outside of the tone chamber you have 104 reeds for 2 voices, so probably you have a range of 52 notes on treble side (out of those 87 buttons, as two rows are repeats). In tone chamber probably 2 voices, though we can't see inside from the pictures you showed. Typically that's it - if it were 3 voices only then usually it would be 2 in tone chamber and 1 outside.

Hope this helps!

 

[Notario]

Hey man, thanks so much for your feedback.

So inside the tone chamber, there's a second reed box, with the same amount of reeds (it seems from the angle I can get with the naked eye). That means that inside the tone chamber, there's 84 reeds. Is that enough for the 2 voices of the tone chamber ? Should not be 104 reeds as well?

For the bass I'm quite happy to know about the 5 voices. The bass sound of this accordion is actually magical.

Thank you again for the feedback, it's super nice from you !

 

[Ignacchitti]

So inside the tone chamber, there's a second reed box, with the same amount of reeds (it seems from the angle I can get with the naked eye). That means that inside the tone chamber, there's 84 reeds. Is that enough for the 2 voices of the tone chamber ? Should not be 104 reeds as well?

The best thing to make sure would be to go just one step further from where you got to, and take out the reed blocks from the tone chamber.
To do so you would just need to pull this latch (even though there are screws, there is nothing that needs to be screwed/unscrewed, it's a very simple pull/push and it is super easy to put it back into place!):



I see your point about the hypothetical and weird scenario of 84 notes in tone chamber (in case there were only 2 reed blocks and both had 21 notes on each side). But bear in mind that many models have an extra block to complete the correct number of reeds. Take the following example (where there is a extra reed block with reeds, in this case it appears "hidden" behind the reed blocks outside the tone chamber, so also look there):



If you took a picture of this accordion from the same angles you did, you would not notice the extra reed block:



So either that or instead of 84 notes, you have 52 in the tone chamber (and thus 3 voices on treble).
As @Walker put in another thread:
"52 notes & 3 voices = 4.5 reed blocks required
52 notes & 4 voices = 6 reed blocks required"
With some exceptions, but usually that is it.

 

[debra]

...
"52 notes & 3 voices = 4.5 reed blocks required
52 notes & 4 voices = 6 reed blocks required"
With some exceptions, but usually that is it.

In the pictures we cannot really see what's inside the cassotto, but there are different possibilities that result in strange numbers. There could be extra notes and an octave coupler for instance, but that doesn't lead to 84 reeds...

 

[Notario]

So, as suggested by @Ignacchitti , I dismounted the reed boxes so i could get a real overview of this thing.
It appears that I was wrong for the number of reeds. There's in total 64 reeds in the cassotto, and as @debra sugestted, an octave coupler. I made a video to show it :


With this, I now wonder if oppening a second octave makes it a second voice ? In that case, then there is two L in the cassotto. Or is this not considering as a second voice ? In that case I would have a 3 voice accordion and will need to change the title of my youtube video

I really don't understand much about what makes a voice (just + a different reed, or can be the same reed with octave coupler like mine ? )
If someone can help me finish to decipher all this, it would be amazing. Also, how to know if it's a L, M, or H? for example, considering this accordion is indeed a 4 voice, would this be a LLMM ? or a LLMH? or a MMHH? What decides, after all, the combination of these voices to be L or M or H?

Thanks so much in advance to all that have been helping me with this. I learned already so much with all this and I'm looking so forward to continue to gain knowledge about accordion mechanics

 

[debra]

The octave coupler "trick" to give the illusion of having an extra voice is certainly not unique to this accordion.
The Hohner Solist MB2 for instance offers 58 notes in its melody bass, seemingly in 2 voices (LM) yet the bass side only has 58 reed plates. It has what looks like two bass registers but in fact it's just an octave coupler that's turned on or off. (And that explains why it's harder to press these register switches than on accordions with true registers.) The highest octave of that melody bass is only single voice, because having it be two voices would require 70 reed plates.

 

[Notario]

So, these last days I've been reading tons of articles, forums and everything I can find on internet in order to understand better the configuration of this particular accordion.

Starting by this particular mechanism of having the option to operate a register that will connect another octave valve in the same set of reeds. It seems to be called a "déclassement" by some people in forums (actually I thought declassement was something else, but @debra call this a declassement in another thread, link will be down).
But the way it's mounted and the fact that it is used for two different octaves of the same set of reeds of the basson voice playing at the same time, indicates this to be, what they call in France, the "double peigne octave basson", that can be used to get a lower or higher octave pitched basson reed to play at the same time than the normal basson reed. (Higher pitched in my accordion).

What seems to be very particular and quiete unique, is the fact that this "déclassement / double peigne octave basson" is built inside the/a cassotto.
Even tho it may exist else where (I've read of the Hohner Romandie that may have a similar construction, or the Fratelli Crosio of @donn , but cannot confirm because I can't read anywhere that they have it inside the/a cassotto), it seems that an accordion it's either built with a cassotto, or with a déclassement, but not with a déclassement/double peigne inside a cassotto.
-> This may be the reason this accordion makes such an unique sound. I've played witha high number of accordions (PA's and CBA's), but this one as such an unique melodic sound. It's mesmerizing and gets to everyone that ever heard it.
Or it was, before getting slowly out of tune with the passage of time

Here are some links with information about all this, including some conversations found in this forum :

Unterschied Declassement / Cassotto ?

Hallo Leute, ich bin mit diatonischen und chromatischen (B-Griff) Instrumenten unterwegs und bin derzeit auf der Jagd nach einer alten Morino (Artiste XN). Da gibts ja welche mit und ohne Cassotto bzw. auch welche mit einem Declassement (wie ich hier gelesen habe ;-) ) Leider ist mir der...

www.musiker-board.de

M

Thread 'Cavagnolo Virtuose 12 peigne arriere'

Jan 19, 2019

I wrongly identified a Maugein accordion belonging to another member recently, and it turned out to be a peigne arriere model rather than one with a tone chamber.

Peigne arriere has been discussed before and Ill be the first to admit that I dont really understand the concept of the system at all. For the uninitiated, they were once fitted to accordions made for the French market. It is a complicated system comprising many additional parts in the treble mechanism (levers, valves, and various other components) with the intention of enhancing the sound of the treble registers, mainly the...

• maugein96
• Replies: 7
• Forum: Accordion Makes & Models

US2861495A - Double octave mechanism for accordions - Google Patents

Le registre peigne

Fonctionnement et intérêt du registre à peigne.

www.mon-accordeon.com

S

Thread 'Lower Bassoon Accordion'

Mar 5, 2015

Now heres an interesting accordion for sale. If I had absolutely no other use for the money I would very much consider it....

http://www.gumtree.com/p/accordians/accordion-john-leslie-special-new-/1101845152

It says 5 voice mussette but its not - if you look at the couplers, youll see the reed configuration is actually LLMMH. Id really like having a lower bassoon set even if only for the novelty!

• simonking
• Replies: 5
• Forum: Accordion Chat

M

Thread 'What exactly is a French accordion?'

Jul 6, 2017

Rather than try and explain this phenomenon in detail Ive take the opportunity to post a link to an accordion dealer who is based near Lyon in France.

Although the website and catalogues are obviously in French, if you take a little time and trouble to explore the various links contained within the website youll find a lot of useful information with regard to tunings, including some sound samples. The various reed combinations used by French players, such as double bassoon, and also which reeds are found in tone chambers can be ascertained from the diagrams, and IMHO it is worth taking...

• maugein96
• Replies: 39
• Forum: Accordion Chat

S

SOLD: Thread 'Hohner Morino Artiste VI D'

Feb 26, 2024

Partly as a result of various discussions on this forum, I got interested in the Hohner Artiste series. I wanted an early model from the Venanzio Morino era and ended up buying one from Georges Pellegrini that looked to be in good shape. A few years later, I find myself needing to downsize my collection and get this accordion to someone with more time to play and more space to store.

This is a C-system accordion, built in 1956 (see certificate from Hohner). The right hand has 4 voices (LMMH), 11 registers and a whopping 5+ octave range of 62 notes (A to B-flat). I replaced a few of the...

• Skari
• Replies: 22
• Forum: Accordions (and accessories) For Sale

• 

About this being or not a 4 voice instead of a 3 voice doesn't really matter to me, considering the unique appreciated sound it makes. But after everything I could find, is that what determines a voice is that a reed is playing, to put it super simple. So of course, if it's a 3 voices register on, 3 reeds are playing for the same button. They can be a "normal" octave (M - 8'), or in another octaves (L - 16' and H - 4'), or just slightly outtuned reeds (like for a MMM - Musette tuning).
However, there's never once a mention that it has to be a reed from an additional set of reeds. In the end, if it's a reed from an additional set of reeds that are 8' adjusted, or a reed from the same set but an octave lower (which will make it a 8' anyways if the normal would be a 16' for that button), it doesn't change the fact that literally, the sound is getting out of the accordion from 4 different reeds , like for example : 16' + 8' + 8' + 8' (in the case of mine)

I don't know what difference would be to have and extra set of reeds with exactly the same caracteristics but tuned an octave lower, or just use a mecanism to use at the same time an octave lower of that same set of reeds (like the accordions with double peigne do).
I also found an Accordiola that as this Mechanism of "double peigne octave basson", and having the number of holes for a 4 voice accordion, it's considered a 5 voice accordion (It seems that some makers used this mechanism/"trick" to have a 5 voice accordion, instead of adding more of the same reeds with another octave. This could be used to simply have a 5 voice with less weight, if the set of reeds is heavier than this double peigne mechanism. This I don't know at all).
Here's the Accordiola 5 voice I found :

Accordiola - Occasion basses standard, 120 basses, 5 voix

Accordéon basses standard d'occasion / fabricant : Accordiola, modèle : 120 basses, 5 voix. Publié le 25-02-2016.

www.mon-accordeon.com

I guess back in the time, for configurations wanting LLMM or even LLMH, this was an options to build more compact accordions, not needing to have extra set of reeds than a 3 voice accordion. Comparing with my 4 voice Maugein with a simple peigne for the basson, this Ranco is indeed more compact. I still have to weight them after rebuilding the Ranco, but I think one is not heavier than the other.

Anyways, I don't know if there is more data, examples and images to add, but I find all these particularities and unique mechanisms really interesting. I'm learning more and more and would be amazing to exchange a bit more in this thread about these mechanisms.

I also hope that this thread can bring some new information about this type of accordion / mechanism into internet and help people understand better the complexity and all the different configurations an accordion can have. I don't know if there is another example in the internet of a double peigne octave basson buing built in a cassotto, but it would be amazing if others could come and join the conversation with their experience. Specially you, @donn ! Would be amazing if you could open that Fratelli Crosio and show some pictures of the mechanisme of double peigne you have !

Cheers everyone and hope to learn and exchange even more with you all

 

[debra]

I don't know too much about these different mechanisms. The "declassement" is typically used in an accordion where the L reeds are all "together" under the keyboard (which creates a bit of a pseudo-cassotto effect). The levers going to these reeds can be decoupled from the levers going to the other reeds, and as a result it is possible (but still a bit complex) to not use a register slider to enable/disable the L reeds but a mechanism that "unhooks" the levers from each other, so the pallets for a disabled L voice just stay closed. That's not the same as an octave coupler as used in this Ranco. what the different such mechanisms all share is the "unhooking" which is delicate and probably that is why this technique was abandoned. Octave couplers are still used in convertor bass mechanisms (and cause problems there too).

 

[Notario]

Yeah I can imagine how complex this mechanisms turn out to be when the moment of adjusting and tuning the accordion comes.

I guess the accordion to be made between the 50' / 60' so I can conclude that it uses resistent materials to endure all this time and playing quiete well. I can only speak since when I got it but it ends up to be a fantastic peace of precise machinery