Recommendations for a new accordion for irish/german music?

[SavoryApple]

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum and new to the accordion. Ive been a professional classical musician for most of my life (brass player) but I've fallen in love with folk music (notably irish and german), which got me interested in the accordion.

First question: piano or button accordion? I have experience with piano and that's where I've learned all of my music theory, so I'm leaning toward a piano accordion ,even if its less "authentic". What do you think?

Second question: Do you know which model of Paolo Soprani this guy is playing?

Third question: Are there other accordions that can make a similar sound as the one in the youtube video? I like to describe is as "round" or "mellow", like a flugelhorn as opposed to a piccolo trumpet. Or is that register on the Soprani a unique sound that I can only get with that brand (it's my favorite sound so far)?

Fourth question: My long term goal is to be able to accompany my local irish dance school. If I were to buy a "professional" level accordion as my first instrument, what is the minimum size that you recommend? I would love to get a balance between weight and versatility (in terms of being able to play different styles).

Fifth question: If a button accordion is a better choice, is there one that will allow me to play german folk as well as irish folk, or would I most likely need a different instrument for each?

Thanks so much for all of your help and greetings from Los Angeles (USA)!

 

[Tom]

Welcome Savory!

I’m sorry I can’t answer your questions about the Soprani but it occurs to me that the desire to play “Irish and German folk (Oktoberfest?)” would definitely lead to playing a button box (here called diatonic or melodeon). But with your background and interests, I believe you would then desire a chromatic to play in Ab minor. Like the rest of us, you will get both. And I wish you good luck!!!! Buying an accordion that makes you happy is far harder than playing one. Many people spend either their whole life or their whole wallet. Sometimes both.

 

[Ventura]

an authentic sound for much Folk music is based upon the unique
relative tuning of an accordion's reeds and the combinations
of available reedsets more that the general kind of "sound/Tone"
something seems to have generally speaking in one song

and this then varies by the approach the player has on the Keys

a French Musette appropriate for use with quick solo note melodies
would sound horrible with full fisted chording of the same song
and
as to which is appropriate to a genre, button or keys, from the next
room over no-one has ever doubted the authenticity which which
i play the music, but when i stroll into the room Yes there are
occasional looks of surprise that my accordion does not "look" French

meanwhile, Slavko Avsenick and his Hohner's couldn't BE more authentic
for German music and i have no doubt he could have played the hell
out of an Irish Jig too if he needed someone to spot him a mug of Beer,
but would not likely be accordions an Irishman might have chosen

so you will need to have at least 2 accordions IMHO.. like a nice little
Classic Red Paolo Button Box, and a big old Hohner full size Piano Accordion

PS: since you are on the West Coast, you are lucky as you
can visit Kimric Smythe's shop in person which would
get you a ton of answers and comparisons

 

[oldbayan]

Buttons look cool

 

[OuijaBoard]

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum and new to the accordion. Ive been a professional classical musician for most of my life (brass player) but I've fallen in love with folk music (notably irish and german), which got me interested in the accordion.

First question: piano or button accordion? I have experience with piano and that's where I've learned all of my music theory, so I'm leaning toward a piano accordion ,even if its less "authentic". What do you think?

Second question: Do you know which model of Paolo Soprani this guy is playing?

Third question: Are there other accordions that can make a similar sound as the one in the youtube video? I like to describe is as "round" or "mellow", like a flugelhorn as opposed to a piccolo trumpet. Or is that register on the Soprani a unique sound that I can only get with that brand (it's my favorite sound so far)?

Fourth question: My long term goal is to be able to accompany my local irish dance school. If I were to buy a "professional" level accordion as my first instrument, what is the minimum size that you recommend? I would love to get a balance between weight and versatility (in terms of being able to play different styles).

Fifth question: If a button accordion is a better choice, is there one that will allow me to play german folk as well as irish folk, or would I most likely need a different instrument for each?

Thanks so much for all of your help and greetings from Los Angeles (USA)!

Welcome, and I recommend piano accordion for a couple of reasons. First is your piano experience. But second is the fact that PA is used in both Irish and German folk music. Yes, bisonoric (two sounds per button on the push versus the pull) button accordion is the foremost Irish trad accordion, and bisonoric button boxes are also used in some German folk-- though the button systems used in Irish versus German are totally different, which works against your desire for versatility.

But PA is one hundred percent super prominent in German folk, perhaps the chief accordion for that music, certainly no less prominent than bisonoric/diatonic button accordion. And the stigma PA once had in Irish trad has receded a great deal. There are many wonderful, fantastic, very respected Irish PA players. If I were you I'd embrace the versatility of PA given your interest in more than one folk genre and given that PA has currency in both.

If you're aiming to start with a professional quality PA for dance settings and such while balancing as to weight I'd recommend the 34/72 3-voice LMM PA size. That means 34 treble keys and 72 basses. On the treble side are a set of low reeds and two middle reed sets. A 3-voice has 5 switches giving you 5 choices of sounds using those reed sets combined or by themselves.


That size is hugely popular for folk music and gives you all the scope you could ever need or want while maintaining some portability. I myself use even smaller 3-voice and 2-voice 26-key PAs for Irish and other world folk, but with 34/72 you won't ever feel you're having to arrange around a missing note here or there.

If you didn't want or need a low reed and wanted to mainly use that "flugelhorn" sound you mentioned liking, check out the Saltarelle Clifden model PA. It too is 34/72 but two middle reeds and lighter weight. A pricey but gorgeous sounding and looking professional quality PA very favored by Irish, Scottish, and other fo!k PA players.

I can separately post some great players to check out and some examples of instruments, but you might check out the FB group "Traditional Irish Piano Accordion." Clicking on its "Media" link and choosing "Videos" will produce lots of cool clips to scroll through. The FB group was founded by the amazing Irish PA maestro Jimmy Keane of Chicago, a galvanizing dance and solo player who also composes tunes. For some reason my tablet is refusing to copy and paste links but you can see lots of his playing on the 'tube.

 

[OuijaBoard]

In the clip you asked about Gerry Nulty is playing a bigger accordion with more keys, basses, and sets of reeds than the 34/72 size I mentioned. It has many more switches for more sound combinations of all those reed sets. It's much heavier.

But that smooth, mellow "flugelhorn" sound you like is simply a "dry" middle reed sound. The mid century accordion makers used to print words on each switch in a (corny) description of what orchestral instrument that switch's sound supposedly approximated. The switch for a single M or middle reed by itself was sometimes dubbed "Clarinet" or "Flute" or "Concertina." People will colloquially refer to "the clarinet reed," or, "your flute reed," etc. They mean the M or middle reed by itself.

You can get that sound by punching the switch for a middle reed playing by itself, or a switch for two middle reeds together, but tuned "dry" in unison rather than slightly de-tuned to produce a "wet" tremolo aka "musette" sound.

You don't need all those switches and all that weight for that sound. You can get something like the 34/72 Saltarelle Clifden that has two middle reeds aka MM and have them tuned dry. Or a 3-voice LMM so you'd have the extra sound choices there if you ever wanted/needed them, but most of the time for your favorite sound just hit the M switch or your MM switch with the two MMs tuned dry.

 

[OuijaBoard]

Since I'm on a roll here, to answer your question about the model of Paolo Soprani Gerry is playing in your clip: Paolo Soprani is an old and venerable name in Italian accordion manufacturing, but the factory's original ownership ceased decades ago. Since then the name has been purchased or licensed to others, with quality variations over the years. The example Gerry is playing in the clip looks over 15 years old--the white background panel to the basses and the plain white rather than pearloid keys kind of give that away.

At last count accordions made in Castelfidardo under the Paolo Soprani marque are or were made by a consortium labeled "PASCO Italia." They licensed a few venerable classic old labels and produce them under those separate label names, but it's one consortium umbrella. As of pre-pandemic, the Paolo Soprani product being produced under that umbrella was quite good if you stick to the "Professionale" line and the "Super Paolo" line. The "Super" line are heavier, premium models with cassotto that you don't need for folk music. The "Professionale" line is good, solid Italian product and includes the 34/72 LMM size I discussed above, as well as bigger (and smaller) sizes if you want that.

There is a Paolo Soprani accordion website with models you can peruse. There also is a store in Castelfidardo (world HQ of accordion production) that deals the PASCO products. They are "Castelfidardo Musica." They have a website with different brands including Paolo Soprani and the "Professionale" and "Super Paolo" lines.

In the US, there is an accordion store in Georgia called "Accordionology" that appears to be dealing Paolo Sopranis in various size configurations, both in stock and to order. You can check out some nice stuff right here and get a good idea. They also list that pricey MM 34/60 Saltarelle Clifden I mentioned above, and other nice instruments by brands like Fisitalia.

Caveat: If you're thinking of a professional quality accordion, do avoid the label "E. Soprani." Those are made in Asia and supposedly quality-checked and adjusted in Italy. They are not Paolo Sopranis, they are a cheaper Asian line the PASCO Italia umbrella purveys along with Italian-made labels. I see a few sizes at the Accordionology listings along with the Italian-made items and I'm giving you a heads-up to avoid confusion.

https://www.accordionology.com/accordions/#jump

 

[OuijaBoard]

I'm now at a computer that will copy/paste links, so here are a couple.

This is Jimmy Keane playing Irish music on a two-voice 34/60 MM Saltarelle Clifden, wonderfully lightweight but pro-quality and gorgeous. The tuning on this one he's using here has a little musette, it's not absolutely dry. Hitting the switch for the single M reed would give you that dry "flugelhorn" tone, and you could have the MM setting tuned dry if you wanted. In other clips you can see Jimmy Keane playing accordions of his that are the size of a refrigerator, LOL. They are magnificent, but it's not necessary for folk music . . unless you really insist.





Here is a young wiz playing Irish trad on a wood-chassis Paolo Soprani "Folk Model" PA. That's just like a "Professionale," but they call the wood look the "Folk" model. It'll be heavier due to the wood. Personally I like rainbow-colored pearloid, but the wood is nice too. This is a bigger size with four treble-side reed sets, LMMM, and 37/96.





Here is a gent at Accordionology demo-ing an LMM Paolo Soprani Professionale 30/72. Including a dollop of Irish trad at the end:

 

[SteveBox]

I agree with all that has been said so far. You can play almost any type of music on a piano accordion, but you probably won't be able to duplicate the characteristic push-pull sound of a diatonic button accordion - if you care about that. Since you don't yet play accordion, maybe you want to consider a button version. (Buttons look cool.)

The diatonic accordions (also called melodeons) have two notes on each button, selected by the bellows direction, which facilitates fast playing because your fingers don't have to move around as much. However, if you decide to go the button route, then you need to consider which button system, as there are MANY of them. Some systems are more suited to certain styles of music than others.

Button accordions for German music are usually the Steirische Harmonikas. These are designed to be oom-pah machines with deep bass reeds. See this introductory lesson on how to play one. Piano accordions and chromatic button accordions are also popular and authentically used for German music.

For Irish music, the most "authentic" button accordion is the two-row half-step chromatic, with two rows playing two diatonic scales a half-step apart (usually either B/C or C#/D). By playing across the two rows, and reversing the bellows as needed, you have a full chromatic scale for single note melodies. This seems to fit traditional Irish music well, which mostly consists of fast, ornamented single-note melodies.

Here is Sharon Shannon, one of the masters of the Irish accordion. Playing one is a different experience than a piano accordion.

The other major class of diatonic accordions that are sometimes used for Irish music are the quint-tuned ones with rows tuned to keys that are a fifth/fourth apart. For Irish music, you would probably choose a D/G, A/D, or A/D/G. German Steirisches are also tuned this way, but with a slightly modified layout.

As others have pointed out, there are many excellent musicians who play Irish music on piano accordions. You might be interested in comparing these examples of the same popular Irish tune "Star of Munster" being played on both piano accordions and button accordions.

Piano Accordion Example One
Piano Accordion Example Two
Button Accordion and Concertina Example

The third example has two button accordions. The small one is an Anglo concertina, also popular in Irish music. It is also diatonic, but with no bass section.

Scottish traditional music has many similarities to Irish. In Scotland, the piano accordion seems to be more preferred. Phil Cunningham is one of the masters of the Scottish piano accordion.

Then there is another major category of button accordions, the chromatic button accordion. These are just like a piano accordion in that you get the same note for both bellows directions, but with the notes arranged in a grid of buttons. Most of these are as large as piano accordions, but as the keyboard design is more compact, it is possible to make one as small as a diatonic accordion if you replace the 48 -120 button Stradella bass with a more compact bass system.

Personally, I play Irish music on a small 3-row chromatic button accordion with a 24-bass system. It is not entirely authentic, but it fits in and "looks authentic" at Irish sessions.

 

[OuijaBoard]

I also use a small CBA MM sometimes for Irish, Scorrish, and any other world folk music that comes to mind. I detoured from unisonoric to learn and play Irish on B/C bisonoric and played it for years, but eventually found it super-limiting and overrated except as an occasional sideline if you already play PA or CBA. That back and-forth articulation gets tiresome feeling and sounding aside from extremely melodically simple dance tunes like polkas, as do the severely limited and few in number bisonoric basses. It has a charm, but it wears thin IMHO.

 

[Tom]

I also use a small CBA MM sometimes for Irish, Scorrish, and any other world folk music that comes to mind. I detoured from unisonoric to learn and play Irish on B/C bisonoric and played it for years, but eventually found it super-limiting and overrated except as an occasional sideline if you already play PA or CBA. That back and-forth articulation gets tiresome feeling and sounding aside from extremely melodically simple dance tunes like polkas, as do the severely limited and few in number bisonoric basses. It has a charm, but it wears thin IMHO.

Man Oiga, I could use a few new simple polkas. Which ones are you referring to? Got any sheets or links? Something easy to fill time would be really helpful right about now.....

 

[cat]

I was mostly interested in Irish/Scots when I took up bisonoric box playing. Since I already played a little anglo c. I just got a few quint boxes in suitable keys. I play a bunch of ITM and ceòl mòr on stringed instruments, and concertinas, so I never felt the unrelenting  need to get a semitone box.

Although my main is a German "folk" box - Hohner club, I know no German folk music. I play S American forro, cumbia, chamame and bal type French tunes. Some Irish tunes too, but wrong key for sessions.

I play piano accordion for stuff that exceeds my bisonoric boxes.

I'm a frugal procurer of accordions - in that I like to try to re-use stuff made of plastic. So I get used accordions, very cheap, and consequently play piano accordion - of course!

My first box was a German folk box (hohner club) - had no idea what it was other than a diatonic/bisonoric quint type of box. But i wanted to learn all my contradance tunes on it.

 

[Monty [IIIII]]

As OuijaBoard says at length above, there is no reason not to choose a piano accordion for Irish and German music. The particular brand of accordion is not as important as the right combination of reeds and switches for the music you want to play. Most important, I think, is to understand the style and setting of the music you want to play. Piano accordions have been used forever in Irish ceilidh dancing (group dancing like American square dancing) though only more recently accepted in traditional Irish sessions, though the "oom pah pah" of the bass side is highly discouraged . But if your wish is to play Irish melodies and songs for a general audience rather than trad. purists, a piano accordion plays "Danny Boy" as well as anything. I don't know German music well (other than Bach, Beethoven, etc.) but the piano accordion seems to be popular in German bands, and the "oom pah pah" of the bass accompaniment appears quiet welcome.

Because I like to play all sorts of music (mostly folk but some jazz and classical) the piano accordion suits nearly every genre. Not that I'm able to master every style or tune, but I've heard it done on piano accordion, so I know the deficit is mine rather than that of my instrument. After playing many different piano accordions, I settled on a 34 key/ 96 button mid sized instrument with LMMM tuning on the treble side and 3 switches on the bass. I have a range of tunings available from dry tremolo to moderately wet which covers a reasonably wide range of musical traditions. I get all of this out of a 9 kilogram box which is much heavier than the little button boxes popular in Irish music, but still not too heavy to lug around to sessions and festivals. I chose a Serenellini brand because it seemed to offer the best balance between quality, weight and affordability. But there are many other good choices available too depending upon your budget and other factors.

It took me dozens of used instruments and various struggles to find suitable technicians for repairs and tuning before I finally settled on the instrument I like best. If you don't want to take that journey through moldy closets and junk stores, haggling on e-bay and so forth, visit some dealers who have a lot of instruments in stock and find the one that feels and sounds right. On the other hand, the search for the "holy grail" of accordions can be interesting too if you have the time. You learn a little with each encounter and transaction, who you can trust and who you can't, how much to pay and when you have been the fool. But you probably won't save money over the cost of a new instrument, and you spend a lot of time looking when you could be practicing and developing your musical talents. At least that's the way I see it. Others may disagree....

 

[SteveBox]

But if your wish is to play Irish melodies and songs for a general audience rather than trad. purists, a piano accordion plays "Danny Boy" as well as anything.

By my experience, "Danny Boy" is not a tune that serious Irish session musicians like to play or sing. Any mention of it results in eye rolling, grimacing, and jokes.

 

[Monty [IIIII]]

Something I didn't mention in my previous post... If you only care about Irish and German music you could get by with a lighter piano accordion, with fewer banks of reeds, than the setup I mentioned with 4 sets of reeds treble side. I got the LMMM combination because I like to get the extra warbly or vibrato or "wet" sound of Scottish and French music. In Irish traditional sessions a piano accordion often uses only two medium reeds tuned at a slightly different pitch to create a "dry" vibrato. Sometime they add a lower reed to the mix. So an accordion with MM or LMM with dry tuning is good. As far as I know, the "dry" vibrato is also popular in German and many other traditions.

Of course, all that I've said may be meaningless if you aren't familiar with how the various banks of reeds interact to produce sounds associated with the accordion. So, before you go looking for an accordion with a specific sound, it would be worthwhile to do some research on basic accordion design and tuning, becoming familiar with terms such as "wet" or "dry" ; Jazz tuning vs American tremolo, vs German tremolo, vs Italian or French etc. Understand what is meant by A-440 tuning vs. A-442 and the difference between reeds tuned 5 cents apart vs. 15 cents or 25 cents. And on and on....

You can learn a lot about accordions from a chat room or forum such as this, or go to a reputable dealer with experienced staff who can help you to understand all of the multitude of possibilities in achieving the sound you want. I've found it helpful to listen to a lot of accordion music on Youtube and elsewhere to get a sense of what I like and try to see which instruments performers are playing to get the sound I want.

Happy travels

 

[SavoryApple]

I'm now at a computer that will copy/paste links, so here are a couple.

This is Jimmy Keane playing Irish music on a two-voice 34/60 MM Saltarelle Clifden, wonderfully lightweight but pro-quality and gorgeous. The tuning on this one he's using here has a little musette, it's not absolutely dry. Hitting the switch for the single M reed would give you that dry "flugelhorn" tone, and you could have the MM setting tuned dry if you wanted. In other clips you can see Jimmy Keane playing accordions of his that are the size of a refrigerator, LOL. They are magnificent, but it's not necessary for folk music . . unless you really insist.





Here is a young wiz playing Irish trad on a wood-chassis Paolo Soprani "Folk Model" PA. That's just like a "Professionale," but they call the wood look the "Folk" model. It'll be heavier due to the wood. Personally I like rainbow-colored pearloid, but the wood is nice too. This is a bigger size with four treble-side reed sets, LMMM, and 37/96.





Here is a gent at Accordionology demo-ing an LMM Paolo Soprani Professionale 30/72. Including a dollop of Irish trad at the end:

Thank you so much for your insights! Really appreciate that you took the time to write all of this. So helpful to know that I like the dry M reed sound, that wood accordions are heavier than plastic, and for the size recommendation of 34/72 LMM.

If I buy a used accordion without being able to play it first (like say a paolo soprani LMM), can I have the reeds tuned after the fact at my local repair shop? Or will I need to completely replace the reeds?

Also, do you know anything about a "fisarmonica" model: reverb fisarmonica for sale
Its a bit big (41/120), but the price is right...

 

[Monty [IIIII]]

By my experience, "Danny Boy" is not a tune that serious Irish session musicians like to play or sing. Any mention of it results in eye rolling, grimacing, and jokes.

Agreed. Most Irish sessions I've attended over the years tend to play jigs and reels exclusively. But I've also heard "singing" sessions which include a fair number of ballads, though usually not the hackneyed "Danny Boy". This tune and others that are more "music hall" or "Vaudeville" than traditional get a lot of requests on St. Patrick's day (in USA) and are often performed by musicians who are more entertainers than traditionalists of any genre. They have a repertoire of well known, often requested tunes for all occasions and most audiences... Irish, German, Italian, Slovenian etc. But then that's another thread..

 

[OuijaBoard]

Man Oiga, I could use a few new simple polkas. Which ones are you referring to? Got any sheets or links? Something easy to fill time would be really helpful right about now.....

I just caught up with this. In Ireland polkas are played all over, but there is a region that historically and to this day is the home of the dance music full of polkas, slides, and slip jigs. These are melodically much more simple than the more complex reels that kind of rule elsewhere around the country, but that is no pejorative--these dance forms are full of lift and movement in large part due to their melodic simplicity, as you can see with polkas in other world genres. This is some of the most fun and joyful traditional Irish music to play, and also some of the easiest dance music to learn by ear. They're super-easy to learn, but playing them with the swing and lilt that "keeps the dancers in the air"--that takes time to get in your bones!:

The home of Irish polkas in Ireland is the sliabh luachra region that straddles parts of counties Kerry and Cork. Sliabh Luachra means "rushy mountain." Here is a minute-and-a-half taste that shows some dancing too:




The great Irish button accordion player Jackie Daly is one of the best-known sliabh luachra players--he's made many mighty records, solo and with others.

Jackie's early solo accordion record on Green Linnet, "Music From Sliabh Luachra," is full of great stuff. It's a stone classic. He plays a couple tracks on concertina also. You can hear the whole thing on the 'tube here--The opening track is three polkas--a great start! I don't think the youtube tracklist tells you what "type" of dance tune is on each track, you'll have to search out liner notes or a photo of the back of the CD somewhere else.

But the first track is definitely POLKAS:

 

[OuijaBoard]

Here are a couple of well-known, wonderful polkas that are widely played in the session repertoire:




Here are three Kerry polkas made famous in the trad scene by the Chieftains--most session players know these.

 

[Tom]

Here are a couple of well-known, wonderful polkas that are widely played in the session repertoire:




Here are three Kerry polkas made famous in the trad scene by the Chieftains--most session players know these.

Thanks Ouiga!!!! Very cool stuff here. I’m so used to German and Czech polkas that I would not have recognized these tunes as polkas. I would have guessed “jigs and reels.” Just goes to show you “the world is so full of a number of things, we should all be as happy as kings” once again. Irish polkas, who would have thought it?