Recommended weight and size for a beginner CBA?

[mwatersworld]

 As someone relatively new to chromatic accordions I have some questions about the weight of accordion a beginner should start with and what a typical learning curve should look like?
 
I’ve been playing diatonic accordions and melodeons for many years and have always enjoyed their relative lightness and the ‘bounce’ that the rapid bellows movements can impart on some tunes. Of course, all that comes with the price of a relatively limited range. Hence the attempted addition of chromatic button accordion to my learning.
 
I’ve been playing a B system CBA on a Moskva Russian Bayan for about a year. For some reason, B system seemed more intuitive to me. It has the standard 3 rows with 100 basses and weighs 18 pounds. My heaviest diatonic is about 8 pounds so it always feels like a huge beast when I lift it up. I’ve mastered the treble layout and can play much of what I can play on my diatonics without too much trouble, albeit more slowly and less lively.
 
I had the Bayan worked on and it’s fairly responsive. But after playing for a while I find my inner left elbow starts hurting forcing me to cut my practice sessions short. I’m 58 and fairly fit but I do wonder whether I’m doing more harm than good by keeping up the struggle.
 
My question is whether a beginner really needs all the extra weight and complexity of additional buttons and octaves that are rarely used or is it better to buy a smaller box first and then move up in size once this is mastered? As a learner, I tend to play ‘easy’ tunes in one octave and my bass range tends to be limited (for now) to F to B.
 
Would I be better off getting something small and lighter, perhaps with a 48 or 60 bass or is it better to slowly grapple with a larger box in the hopes that the size and weight will seem normal after some time? And if so, what model and/or brand would you recommend?
 
Many thanks in anticipation.
 
Mark
 

 

[george garside]

From what you are asking I would guess that you already have the answer!  But for what its worth  my view  as a diatonic/melodeon player  is that the smallest piano/ continental chromatic  to go for is simply the smallest that has the range of notes you need  and also has the sound you like.  The latter is very important particularly in respect of number of treble voices  and the degree of dry or wet tuning  . These are the things you are stuck with once you've bought a box.

A 48 bass  may well have the range of notes you want but most are only 2 voice.  60 or 72 bass  should have everything you want and  several 3 voice boxes available . 4 voices are,to me. worth having but  scarce in 72 bass size.

With a 3 voice you could have mmm or mml  sets of reeds but only a 4 voice will offer both in the same box.

The 120 bass 4 voice jobs some with additional electronics and free basses are  popular amongst those of a 'classical' disposition  but whether they are actually needed or just 'the thing to have' I am not sure!

So my advice would be to go for the smallest lightest box that will cover the type of music you want to play  and that has a sound you like  and stick with it.  There is absolutely no need to ''upgrade'' to a larger box  if a smaller one fits the bill!

george

---

From what you are asking I would guess that you already have the answer!  But for what its worth  my view  as a diatonic/melodeon player  is that the smallest piano/ continental chromatic  to go for is simply the smallest that has the range of notes you need  and also has the sound you like.  The latter is very important particularly in respect of number of treble voices  and the degree of dry or wet tuning  . These are the things you are stuck with once you've bought a box.

A 48 bass  may well have the range of notes you want but most are only 2 voice.  60 or 72 bass  should have everything you want and  several 3 voice boxes available . 4 voices are,to me. worth having but  scarce in 72 bass size.

With a 3 voice you could have mmm or mml  sets of reeds but only a 4 voice will offer both in the same box.

The 120 bass 4 voice jobs some with additional electronics and free basses are  popular amongst those of a 'classical' disposition  but whether they are actually needed or just 'the thing to have' I am not sure!

So my advice would be to go for the smallest lightest box that will cover the type of music you want to play  and that has a sound you like

george

 

[maugein96]

George has just about covered it, and the only thing to avoid is a box that turns out to be under equipped for your needs. 


Moving to another box can cause all sorts of groans from tendons and muscles, but in my case it usually doesnt last long until my finely honed body adjusts to the change. 
  
Im pushing 66 and about as fit as a beach ball with a nail in it. Ive played big heavy boxes since I was about 32, but as a big heavy type myself Ive never had too much trouble, apart from breaking the odd chair! It was once always the case that you bought a box for the sound, and the weight was never really much of a consideration. However, in these days of youngsters not beginning to play until theyre in their late 50s and older, weight seems to be a prime consideration. 

These days one make can be as good as another, or as bad. I honestly couldnt recommend any particular make, as accordions are a very personal choice, and youd ideally need to try one out and see. Id be very wary of ordering anything online based on a recommendation from somebody else, as I could virtually guarantee youd regret it.  

Beginner is a confusing term. Sounds like you are an already competent musician, and what you need to consider is how many hands do you want tied behind your back if you decided to go for an instrument based on weight and size alone?
Might be a case of no pain no gain, but be careful you dont do any real damage. 

Biggest problem you have is where to get a B system CBA. Youd really struggle to shift a small B system box in most countries in the world if it didnt suit. 

Youll now be more confused than when you asked for advice, and maybe I should have just agreed with George and left it at that!

Check out Massimo Budriesi on this huge CBA, and he has the cheek to wear a backstrap with it! That instrument was made for Filuzzi Bolognese, and you wont see many around. No bass buttons (too heavy!). Not very good for jazz or classical, but the heaviest thing hes carrying is his hair!

 

[TomBR]

Hi Mark
Good luck on your CBA journey!

I just wonder whether its the size and weight of your bayan thats causing the problem or something else.
I gave myself shoulder problems when starting to learn anglo concertina. Obviously thats a little light instrument compared with an accordion, but unwitting tension in learning to play gave me problems that took a couple of months of physio exercises to clear (after Id given up concertina.)

You wont necessarily agree with what she says but theres an interesting angle on accordion left arm from Cathie Travers here


In an ideal world I guess youd play a smaller lighter accordion as a test.
Theres also the question of responsiveness apart from size and weight.  Im pretty sure my Fratelli Crosio 120 bass takes less left arm effort than my Delicia 72 used to.

Are you opening the bellows a long way so that you have to lift the bass end back up? Theres always the Mick Foster bellows approach (though some accordionists dont approve.)


No doubt others far wiser than me will chip in but Id be quite surprised if a smaller lighter accordion is the answer in itself.
Cheers
Tom

 

[TW]

If you are not 'digital averse', you could consider the magnificent Roland FR 1XB.
It has a great range and and is at least 2 Kg's lighter than your current accordion.
But, if you have to have reeds, then.....

 

[donn]

You may be able to tell better than we, whether an accordion will work for you. If you know what music you'll be trying to play on it. The key will determine what basses you need, but the real test will be whether you have the notes on the right side. If it's in doubt, someone here might know what the bottom notes are for an accordion you're evaluating - I guess they usually say how many treble notes there are, but not which notes they are.

But do consider some of the ideas above about other issues besides weight per se. Yours doesn't seem exceptionally heavy to me, at any rate it's lighter than mine. All accordions are pretty heavy, and the technique is very different from diatonic partly because of that.

 

[debra]

The most important thing to get right is the *size* of the new instrument to get. That a beginner needs a smaller accordion than an advanced player is nonsense. A beginner may not need 4 or 5 voices, but an accordion must "fit" properly, otherwise your back, shoulders and arms may start hurting after a while of practicing.
Which size is best depends on your own physical body size. Some people will find that an instrument that is just about 40 cm tall (called "length" in a catalog), others are most comfortable with 44cm, others 46, some maybe even 50cm (very large for a CBA but the PA-equivalent CBA's are sometimes that tall). The depth is also important. Around 19 to 21cm is most comfortable for most people. A convertor or a 5 voice instrument will easily be 23cm deep, meaning your left hand/wrist needs to go further through the bass strap. Weight is much less important than many believe, unless you play while standing/walking. When you sit down and have the correct posture, the accordion will rest flat on your left leg and it doesn't matter whether it is 10kg or 12 or maybe even 13 or 14 (more can become a problem). The weight is only really felt when you lift the accordion from the floor but not while playing. You probably don't need a convertor instrument which would be heavier on the bass side (and you move that weight while pulling and pushing.

 

[mwatersworld]

Many thanks to one and all for the suggestions and advice. I'd never really given much thought to accordion fit and posture but it all makes sense. I found the Cathie Travers YouTube video particularly helpful, particularly her suggestion to keep the left elbow in close to the body to reduce the mechanical strain. I tried it last night and it seemed to drastically reduce the strain on my elbow while also serving to better anchor my hand resulting in better finger placement accuracy - at least that's how it felt. I think I also have a tendency to fight my Bayan in an attempt to match the volume of my other diatonic boxes that often seem to be louder with less effort. As was mentioned above, the technique for CBA and diatonic is somewhat different.

I'm also relieved to hear that my Bayan is not considered particularly heavy. I may indeed end up going the Roland route if only so I can practice with headphones but for the time being, I'm going to put more effort into posture and technique.

Mark

 

[maugein96]

The most important thing to get right is the *size* of the new instrument to get. That a beginner needs a smaller accordion than an advanced player is nonsense. A beginner may not need 4 or 5 voices, but an accordion must "fit" properly, otherwise your back, shoulders and arms may start hurting after a while of practicing.

I strongly agree with that. As far as I'm aware, the penchant for smaller lighter instruments appears to be a recent trend, except for certain types of music which have never required a full sized instrument. 

When I first became interested in playing the accordion, the standard Italian built instrument was either LMMM or LMMH, Bigger and smaller models were available but could be hard to find. 

In France, the land of the "long stand" by performers, they pruned it back to a standard LMM, and that trend seems to have crept in elsewhere. However, if you take a look at most videos on You Tube, the majority of players have 4 or even 5 voice instruments, whether they're playing them standing up, sitting down, or lying down.

Accordions are heavy instruments, and the lightest of mine, a 96 bass, weighs in at 10.5 kg. I've never played standing and never will, so the only issue I have with weight is when I need to carry it up and down the two flights of stairs from the house to the car. I now use one of those rucksack jobs and you could carry a fridge in one of them, if it would fit in. 

I have arthritis in just about every joint they ever invented, but the only way I'd even consider a "toy" accordion would be if I became physically incapable of playing a full sized box, and then I reckon I'd just wipe the dust off the electric guitars and go back to playing what I did before I started wearing 30 lb display cabinets on my chest! I might even try one of those very unloved accordion stands, but I'd still be playing seated if that was possible using one of those. 

As Paul says, once you get the thing onto your left knee, even if you're built like Sean the Leprechaun there isn't really too much of a problem for most of us. Your body will adapt to the instrument in time, although it may complain as mine does when I switch from one instrument to the other. My only prerequisite is a sturdy comfortable chair, and earplugs for my wife and the neighbours. Anybody know where you can get lightweight earplugs, as my wife is older than I am and she could do with not wearing those big heavy earplugs?!

Seriously, find a comfortable box to wear and don't worry too much about what you "need" as a beginner. If you manage to find a suitable B system instrument within a reasonable time, if I send you the cash will you buy me a lottery ticket, because you'll be luckiest guy I've ever known?

 

[george garside]

just to come back briefly . AS others have said if playing seated weight is not  ,within reason, the main issue  .  Yes the  size  of the box can be important and my largest box is just under 17 inches  inches 'tall'.  It is 4 voice MMML  96bass british chromatic , has good compression (i.e no air leeks ) and decent but not top quality reeds. 


With 4 inch wide well padded and carefully adjusted straps I can play standing for reasonable periods of time aand ffor long periods of time playing seated.

A lot of the strain playing  larger boxes comes from waving the bellows  around  as if trying to take off!  This might look showy but puts enormous strain on the left shoulder and arm .  4  to  8 inches of bellows opening is  quite sufficient  and  will allow decent phrasing provided the bass is played lightly i.e. fingers off buttons between strikes unless legato is needed here and there.

As already mentioned have alook at  one of the many Mick Foster youtubes '  Sir Jimmy Shand was of course renowned for his economical use of the bellows.

For what its worth I am 76  with the usual touch of arthritis in shoulders and fingers amd as well as teaching I  can cope as a band leader with a full  evenings dance music.  I think the trick is to play ( not practice) for  an hour or two every day.   


george

 

[Corsaire]

Hi Mark

Lots of helpful advice above.  I had the inner elbow problem when I started playing after a 15 year break.  I found the solution on this forum about keeping the left elbow close to my side and it worked - and I joined the forum ! 

The most important thing is buying the right sized accordion for you and weight is only an issue if you play standing (as I do).  If you're used to playing diatonic, you will perhaps already have an idea of the range of notes/chords you would be happy with.  It's easy to go for a bigger accordion than you actually need because there's always the thought "I might need a bigger range later".  

Size isn't everything - a smaller, responsive box could give you everything you need.  Playing shouldn't be a struggle and technique and posture are all important - a good stretch/flexing of arms and shoulders helps enormously.  

Good luck !  I'm learning the diatonic and am loving it - the tablatures make me think of painting by numbers !!!