So-Called Scottish Tuning.

[Shand79MorinoMan]

Why do so many people seem to dislike what they term as "Scottish Tuning" in boxes. I think the tuning achieved on my Shand Morino which is 61 years old, is a very sweet sweet sound without being too harsh or loud and it does not scream at you or so I am told.
Roy.

 

[TomBR]

I think what some people dislike is a very wet tuning where you really can hear that one reed set is about a quarter tone sharp and another is a quarter tone flat - it can just sound out of tune. I love Scottish accordion music, but on one CD of Jimmy Shand Jnr, the playing is great but the tuning is at the limits of what I can cope with.

 

[maugein96]

I have perhaps been one of the most prolific "critics" of Scottish tuning here on the forum. As someone who was brought up in Lanarkshire I heard a lot of Scottish accordions, particularly in the 50s and 60s, and people definitely got a buzz when an accordionist began a tune with one of those big intro chords that are part of the Scottish playing style. I liken it to the sound of the bagpipes, but I'm not very keen on them either.

When I finally got round to playing in the 80s, I chose French musette on CBA, largely because of the very strong sounding three voice musette boxes most of the big name French players used. As it turned out it wouldn't have mattered what style of music I chose, as I never really managed to make the grade as a player, due to starting too late. I can crucify a handful of French musette standards, but a severe hand injury put paid to any delusions of grandeur I may have had in the flushes of youth. I have explained elsewhere on the forum why I never opted to play Scottish, and I dare not go there again.

I found the more I listened I realised that a lot of French players had ditched the three voice musette in favour of a drier tuning, much as some of the Irish players are doing these days. I don't know much about Scottish and Irish music at all, but some of the French players wanted a jazzier or swing sound, and rejected the "musette pur" that once reigned supreme. As far back as the 30s some players were recording on single reeds with varying amounts of success. The quality of the amplification played its part, but the fact was that the French musette style began to split into two fairly distinct factions, which has continued to this day. In Italy, Maestro Davide Anzaghi, author of the famous method book, advised his pupils against buying a musette tuned instrument, as he reckoned the tuning was too limited in scope of musical styles. I once owned his book, and that comment sort of stuck with me.

I appreciate that no such split has happened in Scotland (yet), where very strong musette tuning has prevailed. I don't listen to much Scottish or Irish accordion music, but Tom Orr has a very different sound from the traditionalists. He has his critics, but his ability sells itself with his drier tuning. He also likes to embellish the tunes, which you'll appreciate is/was a strict taboo in Scottish accordion appreciation, as was playing anything other than strict tempo.

I do believe that it will be a very long time before Scottish music goes down the Irish route, if it ever does, but with today's almost obligatory requirement for players to be amplified, then the need for "Scottish tuning" may be up for debate.

I think it is all down to a matter of personal preference. I've heard one or two French players swinging tunes whilst playing three voice musette, and not many of them managed to cut it. By contrast I've never heard a Scottish player even attempt to do that. In my very limited experience of Scottish accordion music, it would seem to be the case that the audience and your fellow players expect the tunes to be played the way they always have been. If you dare to stray too far off the mark then you're snookered (unless your name happens to be Tom Orr!).

If I was to pick any three voice musette tuning it would be Italian. In my opinion it is the sweetest sounding three voice musette out there. For me, French three voice is too metallic, and Scottish is too heavy on my ear. Of the two Irish tunings I also prefer the drier version. It seems to allow players to be more adventurous with their playing.

It takes all sorts, as they say. Nothing wrong with Scottish music and tuning, for those who appreciate it. I probably wouldn't want to listen to Cajun boxes barking at me all night, but the local Louisiana folk love it. On the other hand I could listen to Brazilian guys playing all night and day, and they probably wouldn't know what to do with three voice musette.

 

[george garside]

To me there is no better tuning/sound than that of shand morino or gaelic and so called 'dry' tuned boxes sound a bit like an angry bee in a bucket trying to get out. Aslo , to me overdoing the dry tuning can result in the box sounding more like an organ than an accordion.

However, each to his own etc !

Another of my personal 'grumps' is the use of the term 'wet' for musette or tremelo. Where did the term originate ---- was it pinched from the terminology often used for a certain type of highly audible undulating flatulence!

george :evil:

 

[maugein96]

I've heard tuning described in England as Straight, Swing, Mild, and Strong, as an alternative to using the same jargon as the weathermen. The French tend to call it Swing, Americain, Vibration, and Musette Pur, and I've no idea what terminology is used elsewhere. You'll see straight away that there is an anomaly with the word "swing", depending on which side of the ditch you are.

Some French boxes, particularly Cavagnolos, can have a sort of choked out two voice sound somewhere between "swing" and "americain", and I suppose it could be likened to an angry bee in the bucket. You either like it or you don't.

The old fashioned three voice "bal musette" sound used to be my preference, and was probably what ultimately drew me to the instrument. However, as time progressed I began to lean towards alternative tunings, and finally concentrated on LMM boxes. It may just have been the case that I was following a trend which appears to have reversed itself, with a lot of young French players now going back to three voice musette pur. However, you also have Galliano, Beier, and the like who prefer their jazz, and are probably better known for their efforts than the youngsters I referred to.

I love the way the situation is in Brazil, where the tunings and other technicalities are all forgotten about in the name of entertainment. When it gets dark they burn accordion method books and music scores for light and warmth. The way they do it in Brazil is my preferred approach to the accordion. Three voice musette maybe wouldn't sound right for their music, but there are a hell of a lot of brilliant players making do with all sorts of weird sounding accordions. No doubt somebody somewhere is playing Samba on a Scottish tuned box, but I don't suppose they really care. The very fact that they have an accordion at all will suffice for most of them. For me, it is the individuality and excellence of the playing, rather than the actual instrument, that captivates me.

I grew up listening to Shand Morinos and the big Hohners in the Scottish dance bands, and their haunting sounds undoubtedly played their part in drawing me to the accordion. It's just that my taste in music has changed over the years, and three voice musette is no longer my favourite accordion sound.

 

[Stephen Hawkins]

John,

You have obviously given this subject a great deal of thought, and I fully understand the situation you alluded to, so I can only accept your appraisal of musette tunings.

Personally, I am quite fond of "Parisian Café Music", and often listen to it on youtube. I was aware of the different tunings, having recently read about the variances between Italian, French and German made accordions.

Anyway, it is all very interesting.

Kind Regards,

Stephen.

 

[maugein96]

"Paris Cafe" music is easy on the ear, although it is often played by Romanian and other Eastern European players who record under French sounding names. Their records often sell for a pittance even although some of them are very accomplished players. The tendency is to play whatever three voice musette accordion they might have, whether it is French, German, or Italian tuned, and most people would never know the difference. The tunes are French and any musette tuning will suffice. I can usually tell a non-French player, but it tends to be by the style they play rather than the sound they make.

To get back towards the topic, Scottish accordionists claim to be able to tell whether a player comes from the east or west coast by his/her playing style, but to me it all sounds the same and I cannot discern any notable difference at all.

In that same vein I probably couldn't tell the sound of a Ranco from a Shand Morino, but I'd be willing to bet that different players tend to get different sounds from the same box.

In an attempt to address Roy's original question, which guitarist did/do you prefer, Jimi Hendrix or Hank Marvin? Both players used the same make and model of guitar, but produced vastly different sounds from them. Why did so many people prefer one sound over the other? I think that's the best I can do, other than to say I used to post video clips of accordionists whom I thought were World beaters on the forum. However, it soon became obvious that not many people agreed with me, and that reinforced my belief that you cannot reasonably expect all other people to share your musical preferences. Strong Scottish tuning is great for the music it was made for, but a lot of the forum members are just not into that style of music. Then there are others who like the music, but not the sound of a particular box.

Jazz and classical players will have no use for musette tuning of any description at all, and will desperately try and force that angry bee of George's out of the bucket for hours at a time.

 

[Howie]

Why did so many people prefer one sound over the other? I think thats the best I can do, other than to say I used to post video clips of accordionists whom I thought were World beaters on the forum. However, it soon became obvious that not many people agreed with me, and that reinforced my belief that you cannot reasonably expect all other people to share your musical preferences.

Could I please encourage you to resume posting clips you enjoy? I went back and found a post you made and liked them.

On shared musical preferences, we can probably all agree that our tastes change over time. Theres quite a lot of music that I scorned as a young man but now cant get enough of, and vice-versa.

I liked the guitar analogy. Its so true - one person would only listen to metal guitar, another flamenco. The guitar is popular enough to support a multitude of forums, many catering for specific applications. Sadly it would seem accordion can barely support a single forum. So I keep reading about music and tunings that arent my favourites, but Im glad theyre popular.

For the original thread question - I can only listen to a full-on scottish tuning for one or two numbers, at best. But it wouldnt surprise me if I came to love it and devour every album I could find. I didnt grow up with that sound but it could become an acquired taste.

 

[maugein96]

Hi Howie,

I stopped posting stuff a few months ago for personal reasons, and have only been back on the forum for a few days. Unfortunately, within that very short time I have become involved in what appears to be a delicate matter involving a forum member and an accordion dealer.

I'm sort of sitting on the fence at the moment, waiting to see if it breaks under my weight, or whether somebody will lift me off before it does.

Thanks for highlighting your take on Scottish tuning. I used the guitar analogy to try and illustrate the fact that we should all be free to make our choice of what we play and listen to. The Scottish accordion world is either something you are into or you are not, and I've had a lot of stick over the years for showing little or no interest in the music of my home nation. I'm actually dual British/Irish, but have no real interest in Irish music either. If Scotland ever gets independence I could be tri-national, but I doubt whether I'll still be here if/when that happens.

 

[JerryPH]

I find the Scottish tuning the most aggressive of all the wet tunings, and it's just a bit too much for my more conservative tastes. Thats what happens when you grow up with German tuning and get used to that.

 

[debra]

I find the Scottish tuning the most aggressive of all the wet tunings, and its just a bit too much for my more conservative tastes. Thats what happens when you grow up with German tuning and get used to that.

To my ears anything over 20 cents starts sounding excessively wet. Supposedly Scottish is like 23.5. That is very wet.
The worst tuning is what I remember as Amsterdam tuning which is what Accordiola instruments used in the Netherlands are famous for. It does not appear to be a standard name for tuning though. It is very wet and will give you a headache rather quickly. (At least it does so for me.)

 

[maugein96]

Daft thing is I actually quite like the Amsterdam tuning. I used to listen to Johnny Meijer, Jaap Valkhoff, Wim Rijkhoff, Simon Hottentot, Toos Endlich, and various other players all blasting my eardrums out with those big chord playing styles on their even bigger Accordiolas. I loved Tant Leens songs in her amsterdamse accent about Oude Awmsterrrrdawm, (dont know if I put enough rs in there), especially when there was accordion backing.

I appreciate that stuff is now considered pretty kitsch, but it was full of atmosphere. However, it was a bit heavy on the ears after a few tunes.

Here is something Im sure youll recognise, Paul, even if you end up putting a hammer through your speakers:- <YOUTUBE id=4ceNdj5JOO0 url=></YOUTUBE>

 

[maugein96]

OK, Ive gone way off the topic here and there, but as a consolation to try and illustrate how Scottish tuning can get a bit sore on the auld lugs, Ive taken the liberty of comparing two Shand Morino accordions, played by different players.

The first clip is pretty easy listening, as the player, the tuning, and the recording equipment all seem to gel together:-

<YOUTUBE id=XzQ91cfdCOk url=></YOUTUBE>

Compare that clip with this one, and hopefully some people might understand what the issue some of us have with strong Scottish musette tuning:-

<YOUTUBE id=URjXix0qMIk url=></YOUTUBE>

Please note Im not criticising the player, the instrument, or the tune, as I am in no position to do that. Its just that my ears prefer the first clip.

Im going to stick my neck out further and ask people to listen to Massimo Budriesi, who plays a strong Italian musette in this clip. The musette is strong enough to cut through, without pulverising the eardrums:-

<YOUTUBE id=wJem-AtWBp0 url=>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJem-AtWBp0</YOUTUBE>

OK, the musical styles are different, but all the music is geared towards dancing. Budriesis musette tuning is about as strong as Italians care to go.

 

[Nuuksu]

The wetter the better

I like these old wet tunings very much, they gave life to music. Listen these videos that maugein96 posted, this nice wet tuning makes these tunes quite exiting. Listen this one, it sounds like folk on academic concert, nothing thrilling. Do they allow dancing?

<YOUTUBE id=iNEtVQHCr3U url=></YOUTUBE>

I play Accordiola with Amsterdam musette tuning and also like it very much. I agree that wet musette tuning is not most suitable for single note playing, but for big chords it is so sweet It also depends on tune, for some tune it is must and others sound much better with other registers. Jazz is one genre that is not possible to play with no other registers than L in casotto or dry M-M.

Dry tuning is also nice but I have noticed that with standard dry tuning accordionists are starting to sound same across the world - pretty boring. Situation start to look like classical accordion players who play folk (nothing wrong with that), they use probably L-H, M-H, or L-M and then all tunes sound like they are from sweden Possibly these times are over when every country had its own unique sound.

Technical reason why to prefer dry tuning is lighter instrument, there is no need for three reeds and easyer to tune.

By the way wet tunings have found their new home in electronic music, supersaw and lead sounds are usually quite wet.

 

[Howie]

I've noticed too, a difference in tuning 'wetness' up the keyboard in different videos. In some, the tuning has been adjusted for higher notes to be milder, for want of a better description. I can't find the clip now but I saw one lady playing a folk piece, the tuning seemed to get wetter for the higher notes and it was pretty extreme. No doubt it suited her ears and the music. To me, it was discordant.

Of course, I'm well aware that the musette tuning I like, (since my box is a Scandalli LMMM it's most likely described as Italian musette) might be distasteful to plenty of listeners. What I like about the Scandalli is I have five choices of wetness ranging from dry to a mild floating to fairly wet, and I like to use them all.

Good observation about electronic music and wet leads. It's most definitely popular for that rave/dance/doof music, and has been for over a decade.

 

[Shand79MorinoMan]

John , The first clip of the Shand Morino shows a box of the early/mid 1950's which was made during Morino's lif time and the second is mid to late 1960's and of an entirely different construction and does not and never would give such a pleasing sound.
Roy.

PS. fortunately my own box is of the first vintage.

 

[maugein96]

Hi Roy,

I obviously wasn't aware of that subtlety, and just took the stance that one box was the same as the other. I should have known better than to get involved with stuff I don't really know anything about (again).

I've never really got to know much about Scottish spec instruments, although I have a Cavagnolo that was built at a time when their quality was not at its best. It wasn't so much the sound as the bits that kept falling off it.

I've promised myself to take the reed blocks out of the Cava and take it to the local tip. I bought it new from Jimmy Clinkscale about 1985, but to say it never suited me would be an understatement. I had to strip the bass side down three times to cure sticking bass buttons. Robert Rolston sent it down to Geoff Holter with a button stuck down and it came back to me with two others stuck down. After I had fixed the bass buttons the palettes started sticking. Tommy Newcomen replaced the palettes and a week later one of the treble buttons sheared off! Nobody's fault except mine for buying crap. It was a 4x2 bass configuration rather than the normal French 3x3, and somebody made a Friday afternoon job of hand-making the different control rods it required.

Fortunately the treble button concerned was in the 5th row so I was able to convert it to a 4 row, which is all I need, simply by cutting the rest of the inside buttons, and part of their control levers off. Apart from the bellows also splitting on a corner and requiring a home made tape up repair, I've not had a lot of bother with it! I now refer to that make as "Cavagnogo".

Thanks for putting me straight about the two different "Morinos".

 

[Shand79MorinoMan]

Pleasure John.
Please keep posting. I finally joined the forum because I enjoy reading your posts and Stephen's as well ! I also enjoy many other peoples posts as opinions are so varied. I do tend to concentrate upon Scottish Country and Old Time dance music with a spattering of continental and Scandinavian thrown in.
Apart from Jimmy Shand I have many Scottish players whom I like and International players such as Emile Vacher, Calle Jularbo are amongst my favourites also.
I often wonder what Emile Vacher would have achieved playing a Shand Morino!
Roy.

 

[maugein96]

There was a time when all I'd listen to was French musette, then realised that there were a whole load of different accordion musical styles out there that I'd never heard of. You may have read elsewhere why I turned my back on Scottish accordion, and I genuinely feel that I missed out in appreciating the instrument by doing so.

Everybody my age in Scotland had heard of Jimmy Shand, although the family favourite button box player in our house was Will Starr (and Duncan McLean the local grocer!). My grandfather had been in France during WW1 and came back raving about the French and Belgian accordion players he had heard there. We lived with him until after I started school and he was always listening to French and Belgian accordionists on the big "wireless". I still maintain that's where I got an ear for the French musette, as I lay in my pram listening to Vacher and the like. Apparently I used to cry when the accordion music was finished.

Heard of Calle Jularbo, but never heard him play. Scandinavian accordion music deserves to be better known. Like Portuguese accordion music it is not very well promoted, but there are some awesome players.

I spent a lot of time trying to find variations in the French musette style, and the truth is it would take a lifetime to be able to catalogue them all. Swiss players like the late Rene Dessibourg added a whole new dimension to it, as do the handful of Basque players who don't play the folk style. The Italians have their own take on "French" musette, etc, etc, etc.

The only Scottish guy I've taken any notice of recently is Tom Orr, and I'd better get the tin hat on. Do you think his "dry" style will catch on, or is it just a passing phase?

I've had to cut back a bit on posting of late as I felt I was overdoing it a bit. I decided I would only become involved in posts and threads where I could be reasonably sure that I knew what I was talking about, and soon realised that for a long time all I had been doing was waffling on about things I really didn't know much about. So I took a rain check and just kept in touch with the forum over the months by having the odd look in. One or two topics caught my eye, but I decided not to "bite".

However, lately there seems to have been more topics that have caught my interest, and I've somehow got involved again.

I had been looking in on one or two French and Italian forums, but the kids these days are not into the stuff I like and my French and Italian are about as good as my Chhattisgarhi, a variation of Hindi that I'd never heard of until today.

Chhattisgarhi lessons tomorrow so I'd better hit the hay!

 

[wirralaccordion]

If a treble registration on a 4 voice LMMM accordion had two dots, one at extreme right and one at extreme left, would this be more Scottish/wet than the registration with all three dots. I assume that the left hand dot indicates a flat tuning and the right hand a sharp tuning compared to the middle dot being neither flat nor sharp.
i.e Beats on this registration would be more pronounced would they not?