So... i'm revalving my accordion
- Thread starter Potato
- Start date
Dingo40
Been here for ages!
Hi Potato, and welcome!
Be guided by your existing valves.
There are several old threads and many YouTube videos on revaluing accordions.
Here's just one example:
Be guided by your existing valves.
There are several old threads and many YouTube videos on revaluing accordions.
Here's just one example:
Let me tell you my experience... a while ago I had a few valves replaced on my Morino. It looked super easy on the outside ones and even the ones on the inside looked challenging, but possible... so my accordion repair guy let me try on a couple of the inside valves. Now, I am very DIY, but understand and respect my current restrictions of my abilities.
I worked on 3 valves, perhaps 15 minutes (he averaged 1 valve about 30 seconds... lol)... after being examined, all 3 had to be taken out and redone because I did not do it properly. The valve had to be pushed in to the inside of the hole, PERFECTLY placed where it was not too long and not touching any of the sides, which was a lot harder than I realized because I was being what I thought very careful. I was off perhaps a 64th of an inch or when the valve was raised it briefly touched the side... both things caused a slight buzzing.
Yeah... not so easy... lol.
So, either you become OBSESSIVE about perfection or learn to live with buzzing or stuck valves or you let someone experienced do them. You know yourself better than anyone, choose your direction.
I worked on 3 valves, perhaps 15 minutes (he averaged 1 valve about 30 seconds... lol)... after being examined, all 3 had to be taken out and redone because I did not do it properly. The valve had to be pushed in to the inside of the hole, PERFECTLY placed where it was not too long and not touching any of the sides, which was a lot harder than I realized because I was being what I thought very careful. I was off perhaps a 64th of an inch or when the valve was raised it briefly touched the side... both things caused a slight buzzing.
Yeah... not so easy... lol.
So, either you become OBSESSIVE about perfection or learn to live with buzzing or stuck valves or you let someone experienced do them. You know yourself better than anyone, choose your direction.
Hi Potato, and welcome!
Be guided by your existing valves.
There are several old threads and many YouTube videos on revaluing accordions.
Here's just one example:
Thanks for sharing @Dingo40 - a very useful video, and quite timely as I am shortly to start re-valving my accordion. I liked the idea of not fitting valves to the outer reed until the waxing is done.
Oh, you make it sound harder than I expected. Hopefully, by the time I've done several hundred I'll have got the hang of it!
I've fully revalved 3 accordions, so I'm almost experienced ...
The inside valves do get easier with a little practise, things I found:
1) Cut inside valve to the same length as the outside valve
2) Using locking forceps to hold the very end of the valve for insertion
3) Insert valve and pull back so it's hard against the rivet
4) Push down with small screwdiver or similar to place the valve then release the locking forceps.
Use a head lamp - lamp that straps round the head to you can actually see inside.
The inside valves do get easier with a little practise, things I found:
1) Cut inside valve to the same length as the outside valve
2) Using locking forceps to hold the very end of the valve for insertion
3) Insert valve and pull back so it's hard against the rivet
4) Push down with small screwdiver or similar to place the valve then release the locking forceps.
Use a head lamp - lamp that straps round the head to you can actually see inside.
Alan Polivka
Active member
You mentioned beeswax. That is NOT used for attaching valves ... it is used for attaching reed plates to a reed block (and it must be mixed with rosin and a bit of oil). For attaching leather valves to reed plates, use thickened shellac. Thickening makes the shellac tacky, so the valve doesn't shift out of place while the shellac is drying. You can thicken shellac by either: a) putting a little bit in an open container and letting it sit out for a couple of days, or b) putting some in a heat-resistant and fire-proof container and setting it on fire until enough of the alcohol burns off to thicken it.
It's not hard, but if you want to do it right the first time, you will find it very labor and time intensive... the valves on the outside are EASY... those you can do in about 15 seconds each after a little practice. It's the inside ones. Use a glue that sets fast... but not too fast. Ideally something that won't fix things in place for a good 30-60 seconds because you will be fiddling and touching up and optimizing position using tweezers and I found using dollar store 2X reading glasses to better see inside were a huge help (even though I didn't need glasses at that point in my life!).
The best hint I had was to be in a very well lit room and on top of that, use a very strong LED powered pen sized flashlight that you can hold in your mouth/fingers to light inside the reed plate cavern. Be EXTREMELY aware that your valve:
- CANNOT touch the wall on either of the 2 sides in all positions from full closed to full open
- CANNOT be sitting too low or too high
- CANNOT be tilted to the right or left where it would hit a corner coming up... the slightest angle to it will mean it hits an edge and buzzes.
- CANNOT be too long where it hits the roof of the cavern at full volume.
So... no, this stuff is not rocket science, but it takes a lot of time and effort your first hundred or so valves. After that, a lot of it becomes muscle memory and it becomes a touch easier, but great care is the rule here.
Essentially, this *is* easy, when badly done, but takes true concerted effort if you want it done right. I learned this real fast when I tried to compare my work to a master's. He made it look easy... its not as easy as it looks to do it right.
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Essentially, this *is* easy, when badly done, but takes true concerted effort if you want it done right. I learned this real fast when I tried to compare my work to a master's. He made it look easy... its not as easy as it looks to do it right.
Thanks Jerry. I did have an offer to spend a couple of hours with a professional to watch him do a few valves. I think I'll take him up on that now.
A seriously good idea. I learned a ton of tricks that separate the master from the wanna-be's in those 2 hours watching and doing under guidance. Now, I'd still not attempt any of the more advanced things, like tuning as that takes more skill than I have at this time, but I know that with practice on a "junker", I could do that too, but in general, that is just being slow, careful, methodical and practice before working on any of your good accordions.
When I get more time, this is my practice accordion:
It's perfect in that it has everything wrong with it. Initially those bellows were to become part of my tuning bellows, but I think I am going to practice on this box many things before I get to the tuning part. Besides other projects, my Soprani from my grandfather one day will benefit from what I learn on this box above.
Both these boxes are in a very sad state, perfect for learning to work on accordions.
Typically, when an accordion needs to be revalved because the valves have become stiff over time or are hopelessly warped,, the wax is also old enough to be replaced. In that case it's not so difficult, because you take off all the reed plates, clean the wax from the reed block, take all the valves off, and then start the rebuilding: I first put the inside valves on, then I wax the reed plates in place and when that is done I put the outside valves on. This eliminates the problem of replacing inside valves, which as Jerry pointed out can be a challenge. I have done it a number of times when inside valves fell off because bad glue was used. But if all the valves need to be replaced doing rewaxing as well is easier.
There are of course people who insist on replacing valves without removing the reed plates... they are just faced with a more expensive repair job then.
As for which sizes of valves to get: all the sizes that you find in the accordion. Accordion repairers tend to keep a stock of valves in all sizes, and both leather and plastic. But even then the length of the reeds goes down bit by bit as the notes go higher and you need to cut down valves to size until you reach a point where you switch to the next smaller size of valves...
There are of course people who insist on replacing valves without removing the reed plates... they are just faced with a more expensive repair job then.
As for which sizes of valves to get: all the sizes that you find in the accordion. Accordion repairers tend to keep a stock of valves in all sizes, and both leather and plastic. But even then the length of the reeds goes down bit by bit as the notes go higher and you need to cut down valves to size until you reach a point where you switch to the next smaller size of valves...
Thanks for the advice, i have watched a few videos and generally understand the processes. Is there a more easy to find alternative to shellac? Ive seen people using glue but i don't know which types are acceptable.
I was also told to use a soldering iron to remove the reeds by melting the wax. Is that correct and if so how to I remove hot liquid wax from the wooden bit.
I was also told to use a soldering iron to remove the reeds by melting the wax. Is that correct and if so how to I remove hot liquid wax from the wooden bit.
Alan Polivka
Active member
Shellac is very easy to obtain. It has the ideal properties (when thickened) for use with reed skins in terms of adhering well enough to hold up for decades of playing while being easily removed when the skins need to be replaced. Unless somebody has decades of experience with a different adhesive, it's not advisable to change from what's been used for over a century and proven to be ideal for the job. Many wannabe repairmen experiment with the wrong materials and adhesives and they might get a result that seems acceptable at first, but then it doesn't hold up over the years or doesn't perform well. Professional accordion repairmen never use anything but materials and adhesives that have been proven to perform well, hold up for decades, and be totally removable without damaging reeds, wood, etc., when a repair is needed.
Usually, by the time it's necessary to replace reed skins, it's also time to replace wax, as Paul mentioned. In that case, the wax is normally brittle enough that you just pry the reed plate away from the block with a knife or sharpened flat-head screwdriver. Then scrape off any remaining bits of wax left on the block and reed plates. i.e., no heat (soldering iron) is necessary for removal. Heat is used for applying new wax after replacing the skin (valve), when it comes time to put the plate back on the block. Remove the old skins and scrape old shellac off the reed plate.
When removing the reed plate to replace the skin on the inside, do not attach the outer reed skin until after rewaxing the reed plate to the block. Otherwise, you will ruin some reed skins during waxing (unless you're really experienced at this).
Only use reed skins from Italy, specifically for an accordion. You can get them from a US supplier, or directly from Carini in Italy or from Leticia Bompezzo (in Italy), who supplies most, if not all, reed skins these days. After experimenting with hundreds of different leathers from US leather suppliers, I have found none that perform properly as accordion reed skins.
One caution when removing a reed plate ... if you are just removing a plate here and there (not doing the entire block), sometimes when you pry away one reed plate, others will come off with it. If you don't want that to happen, you'll need to hold the plates on either side of the one being removed in place so they don't come loose too.
When putting a new skin (valve) on a reed, it should be curled first. I'll explain that in a subsequent post.
Usually, by the time it's necessary to replace reed skins, it's also time to replace wax, as Paul mentioned. In that case, the wax is normally brittle enough that you just pry the reed plate away from the block with a knife or sharpened flat-head screwdriver. Then scrape off any remaining bits of wax left on the block and reed plates. i.e., no heat (soldering iron) is necessary for removal. Heat is used for applying new wax after replacing the skin (valve), when it comes time to put the plate back on the block. Remove the old skins and scrape old shellac off the reed plate.
When removing the reed plate to replace the skin on the inside, do not attach the outer reed skin until after rewaxing the reed plate to the block. Otherwise, you will ruin some reed skins during waxing (unless you're really experienced at this).
Only use reed skins from Italy, specifically for an accordion. You can get them from a US supplier, or directly from Carini in Italy or from Leticia Bompezzo (in Italy), who supplies most, if not all, reed skins these days. After experimenting with hundreds of different leathers from US leather suppliers, I have found none that perform properly as accordion reed skins.
One caution when removing a reed plate ... if you are just removing a plate here and there (not doing the entire block), sometimes when you pry away one reed plate, others will come off with it. If you don't want that to happen, you'll need to hold the plates on either side of the one being removed in place so they don't come loose too.
When putting a new skin (valve) on a reed, it should be curled first. I'll explain that in a subsequent post.
Alan Polivka
Active member
Anytime you replace a reed skin/leather/valve (whatever you choose to call it), do the following:
1. Test the skin to see if one end responds differently than the other. Hold one end of the skin and flick the other end with your fingers. Then do the same with the other end. Sometimes, it will return to normal (straight) shape quicker / stronger on one end than the other. If that's the case, you will want to attach the end you were holding when it responded faster / stronger. If both ends respond the same, then it doesn't matter which end you attach to the reed plate.
2. Starting at the end that will be attached, roll the skin into a tight spiral. This will cause the skin to retain a curl after you let go of it. The curl will be tightest (highest curvature) at the end to be attached with shellac to the reed plate.
3. Apply thickened shellac to the skin over the proper amount of area. Use the old skins as an example of how much to cover with shellac. Don't apply shellac to more than that, or it will restrict the airflow through the reed, causing the loudness to be reduced when played and increasing the amount of retuning you'll have to do. In fact, I always apply shellac to slightly less than what I see on the old skin since a small amount of shellac will seep beyond where you applied it once you press the skin onto the reed plate.
4. While pressing the new skin onto the reed plate with your finger (except for a small area at the unglued end), flick up the unglued end once with a knife, so that the skin lays flat against the plate.
5. Some people stop at this point. I, however, believe in always letting adhesive dry under pressure. So, I put a weight on the glued area of the skin and leave it there for several hours. If I'm just doing a spot repair (one reed), I use a 4 or 5-ounce fishing weight. For doing an entire reed block, I made a strip of wood (the length of a reed block) with a wide strip of high-density window weather gasket to apply across all the reeds and put two heavier weights on that while the shellac dries.
Attach skins to inner reeds before waxing them to the block. Attach outer skins after the reeds are waxed to the block. That way, when you accidentally get some wax on top of a reed plate (which will happen), you haven't damaged a skin.
For skins on the inner side, attach them as close to the opposing reed as possible without touching that reed. Otherwise, the skin may rub against the side of the reed block cavity.
Use thickened shellac to attach reed skins. You can thicken it by pouring some shellac into a small container with a lid. Leave the lid off for a couple of days until the shellac thickens. That way, it will be tacky so that the skin doesn't slid out of place after you attach it and doesn't get absorbed too much into the skin. In fact, if the shellac is appropriately thickened, you can play the reed in the accordion immediately after attaching the skin.
1. Test the skin to see if one end responds differently than the other. Hold one end of the skin and flick the other end with your fingers. Then do the same with the other end. Sometimes, it will return to normal (straight) shape quicker / stronger on one end than the other. If that's the case, you will want to attach the end you were holding when it responded faster / stronger. If both ends respond the same, then it doesn't matter which end you attach to the reed plate.
2. Starting at the end that will be attached, roll the skin into a tight spiral. This will cause the skin to retain a curl after you let go of it. The curl will be tightest (highest curvature) at the end to be attached with shellac to the reed plate.
3. Apply thickened shellac to the skin over the proper amount of area. Use the old skins as an example of how much to cover with shellac. Don't apply shellac to more than that, or it will restrict the airflow through the reed, causing the loudness to be reduced when played and increasing the amount of retuning you'll have to do. In fact, I always apply shellac to slightly less than what I see on the old skin since a small amount of shellac will seep beyond where you applied it once you press the skin onto the reed plate.
4. While pressing the new skin onto the reed plate with your finger (except for a small area at the unglued end), flick up the unglued end once with a knife, so that the skin lays flat against the plate.
5. Some people stop at this point. I, however, believe in always letting adhesive dry under pressure. So, I put a weight on the glued area of the skin and leave it there for several hours. If I'm just doing a spot repair (one reed), I use a 4 or 5-ounce fishing weight. For doing an entire reed block, I made a strip of wood (the length of a reed block) with a wide strip of high-density window weather gasket to apply across all the reeds and put two heavier weights on that while the shellac dries.
Attach skins to inner reeds before waxing them to the block. Attach outer skins after the reeds are waxed to the block. That way, when you accidentally get some wax on top of a reed plate (which will happen), you haven't damaged a skin.
For skins on the inner side, attach them as close to the opposing reed as possible without touching that reed. Otherwise, the skin may rub against the side of the reed block cavity.
Use thickened shellac to attach reed skins. You can thicken it by pouring some shellac into a small container with a lid. Leave the lid off for a couple of days until the shellac thickens. That way, it will be tacky so that the skin doesn't slid out of place after you attach it and doesn't get absorbed too much into the skin. In fact, if the shellac is appropriately thickened, you can play the reed in the accordion immediately after attaching the skin.
Dingo40
Been here for ages!
Not only wannabes: remember the "klebermorino" when an untried glue ruined a whole factory production run of Hohner Morino accordions ?
Alan Polivka
Active member
And, there was the foam used in valve pads on numerous accordions that disintegrated after a couple of decades, making the keys unplayable and clogging reeds with particles of hardened foam. And the bad keytops used on many accordion that scratched and indented with use. And, there are accordions produced today that use epoxy to permanently attach valves to pallets, so they can never be refurbished.
Fabri-Tac is a good glue for valves
Doesn't set too hard and immune to vibration.
