Suggestions of accordion suitable for English folk

[Julian H]

Hi. I've just sold my Hohner Concerto III, because I've started playing a lot more English (and some Irish) folk, and the Hohner was just too brash. I'd welcome any suggestions for a more suitable accordion, perhaps something with a tone similar to a Melodeon?

 

[CC_PDX]

A huge percentage of English And Irish folk players seem to favor Castagnari, Saltarelle and Beltuna for that distinctive warmth and less brash sound. Castagnari made their name catering to those diatonic folk markets Paola Soprani still has a sizable market share in Ireland because some of the legends in the mid 1900s used them.

 

[OuijaBoard]

Well, "melodeon" has a specific meaning pertaining to the one-row bisonoric push-pull diatonic button accordions. They have a characteristic sound because there are 4 banks of reeds with stops to pull to combine them differently, usually with the low reed strongly audible.

Then there is "melodeon" in the more general sense, meaning any bisonoric button box, diatonic or fully chromatic, one to three rows. These can sound like one-row melodeons or have a sweeter middle-reed, MM or MMM or just M sound. Perhaps you're looking for a "melodeon" sound in this sense?

A 2-voice MM PA or a 3-voice LMM with 5 registers you can set on MM or M has the potential to give that sound, the trick is the voice personality of the reeds, not really whether it's a melodeon. A classic vintage German Hohner melodeon will often sound more like your Concerto iii. While the "Italian sound" can often be sweeter/ more lyrical whether it's a PA or a bisonoric button box "melodeon."

In a PA many folk players love Saltarelle's MM Clifden model for that type of sound. It's a pricey wood accordion with handmade reeds very popular for Irish/UK genres, you can check many samples on youtube. There are also PAs by Serenellini, Pigini, Brandoni and others that can give that tone. The MM Pigini Preludio P30 comes to mind, available in black or red, or in cherrywood.

But you want to educate your ear as to what degree of tremolo you'd like in the MM tuning of your instrument, and what the different descriptors for this mean, such as, "dry," "swing," "wet," etc. That is huge in determining how "brash" or sweet the voice personality will be. Units of tremolo are discussed in "cents," as well as verbal descriptors like "swing," or even "dry Irish swing.". Even a "brash" Hohner or Weltmeister can sound sweet with the MM register's factory default tremolo reduced. Familiarizing yourself with these terms and what sounds they refer to will help you choose an accordion with a sound that floats your boat.

 

[Dingo40]

perhaps something with a tone similar to a Melodeon?

As far as folk is concerned, you simply can't beat melodeon

And:

 

[OuijaBoard]

As one who plays both systems but has come to focus on PA and CBA over the so-called "diatonics," I can't agree that bisonoric melodeons are unbeatable for traditional folk music. Well, other than weight, dimensions, and portability, of course. Bisonoric melodeons are great if that's what floats your boat, and they certainly are more "PC" in some of those gentre subcultures--though that is rapidly changing. But for my money a unisonoric, especially a small one, like a small two-voice, can give all the lift and lilt and swing you could want--provided the player knows and respects the specific idiom, and uses their unisonoric "superpowers" for good rather than for evil.

OP, you might check out the public FB group, "Traditional Irish Piano Accordion." They more or less exist for folks to post clips of playing, and you can just keep scrolling and perusing. There's a wide variety of accordions and tremolo tunings on view to give an idea of the different sounds available.


Below are a few charming sound samples with the type of tuning I think the OP is getting at. This would probably be a "swing" of about 4 cents of tremolo--sounds dry but technically it's not bone-dry--about 4 cents of tremolo just to make it rounder and fuller. The bisonoric Irish melodeon player Jackie Daly's tuning is also around a 4-cent "swing." This tuning is very "in" right now with Irish players on any type of box, and is sometimes called "Irish dry swing."

Hearing the delightful playing of Michael Sheehy, a wonderful exponent of the Irish Sliabh Luachra style (polkas and slides a la Jackie Daly), you'd never know it was a PA if you weren't clued in. I believe he plays a small vintage re-badge Weltmeister type PA.

Michael Sheehy: The Cat’s Rambles

Michael Sheehy: The Cat’s Rambles Music from the Sliabh Luachra tradition Michael Sheehy plays music from the Cork, Kerry, Limerick border, an area known as Sliabh Luachra which means &#82…

www.copperplatemailorder.com

 

[dunlustin]

In the 70s when the diatonic revival was taking off in France, Hohners were about all that was easily available.
"Accordionneux," wanting something other than the Hohner tremolo sound, made the trip to Castelfidardo where Ericas and other diatonics had their reeds swapped out for a more modern (?) sound. A drier tuning was also the 'thing.'
Later came the Costalottis, but in the meantime, a lot of music was played.
Perhaps re-reeding a PA could be a solution?

 

[OuijaBoard]

In the 70s when the diatonic revival was taking off in France, Hohners were about all that was easily available.
"Accordionneux," wanting something other than the Hohner tremolo sound, made the trip to Castelfidardo where Ericas and other diatonics had their reeds swapped out for a more modern (?) sound. A drier tuning was also the 'thing.'
Later came the Costalottis, but in the meantime, a lot of music was played.
Perhaps re-reeding a PA could be a solution?

Well, the OP sold their Hohner, and many PAs popular with folk players now arrive new from the factory with drier MM tuning, particularly in the UK, which is the OP's location apparently. Here is an example from a stock listing which includes a link to a youtube demo. This place has a couple of these in stock in different colors:

New 30 Key Irish Dry Tuned Upgraded Paolo Soprani Professional 72 Bass 3 Voice Piano Accordion

Paolo Soprani 34/72 Tremolo 3 Voice Blue Used Accordeon

boorinwoodmusic.com

Here's another UK shop listing an in-stock Pigini P30 and highlighting its "Mild Swing" and "Standard 4 Cent Tremolo"
tuning:

Pigini Preludio P30 Black Mild Swing tuned with Standard Reeds 4 cents tremolo

Lightweight Pigini Preludio P30 Black Mild Swing tuned with Standard Reeds 4 cents tremolo

www.squeezeboxmarketplace.com

This UK listing for a Saltarelle Clifden specifically lists degrees of tremolo you can order:

Saltarelle Clifden 60 bass 2 voice Piano Accordion

Description The Saltarelle Clifden is a very light piano accordion that has found its perfect home in Celtic repertoire. With hand made reeds the response is fast and the tone sweet and warm. The lightly balanced left hand is perfect for sustained accompaniment. Comes complete with hard case and...

thereedlounge.com

Personally I like a slightly wetter "Demi-Swing" of about 7 cents, or the next-wetter setting sometimes called "Americano," around 8-10 cents. But this 4-cent "Mild Swing" or "Dry Swing" is quite the thing currently, for both bisonoric melodeons and PAs in UK/Irish folk, and brand-new accordions aimed at trad/folk players are increasingly set up with this tuning from the factory, so if it floats your boat no messing with the reeds is necessary.

 

[Julian H]

Well, "melodeon" has a specific meaning pertaining to the one-row bisonoric push-pull diatonic button accordions. They have a characteristic sound because there are 4 banks of reeds with stops to pull to combine them differently, usually with the low reed strongly audible.

Then there is "melodeon" in the more general sense, meaning any bisonoric button box, diatonic or fully chromatic, one to three rows. These can sound like one-row melodeons or have a sweeter middle-reed, MM or MMM or just M sound. Perhaps you're looking for a "melodeon" sound in this sense?

A 2-voice MM PA or a 3-voice LMM with 5 registers you can set on MM or M has the potential to give that sound, the trick is the voice personality of the reeds, not really whether it's a melodeon. A classic vintage German Hohner melodeon will often sound more like your Concerto iii. While the "Italian sound" can often be sweeter/ more lyrical whether it's a PA or a bisonoric button box "melodeon."

In a PA many folk players love Saltarelle's MM Clifden model for that type of sound. It's a pricey wood accordion with handmade reeds very popular for Irish/UK genres, you can check many samples on youtube. There are also PAs by Serenellini, Pigini, Brandoni and others that can give that tone. The MM Pigini Preludio P30 comes to mind, available in black or red, or in cherrywood.

But you want to educate your ear as to what degree of tremolo you'd like in the MM tuning of your instrument, and what the different descriptors for this mean, such as, "dry," "swing," "wet," etc. That is huge in determining how "brash" or sweet the voice personality will be. Units of tremolo are discussed in "cents," as well as verbal descriptors like "swing," or even "dry Irish swing.". Even a "brash" Hohner or Weltmeister can sound sweet with the MM register's factory default tremolo reduced. Familiarizing yourself with these terms and what sounds they refer to will help you choose an accordion with a sound that floats your boat.

Great reply. Very helpful. Thanks.

 

[Julian H]

As far as folk is concerned, you simply can't beat melodeon

And:

I know, but i have to do the best I can on the PA. Haven't got enough years left in me to get good in the melodeon!

 

[Julian H]

As one who plays both systems but has come to focus on PA and CBA over the so-called "diatonics," I can't agree that bisonoric melodeons are unbeatable for traditional folk music. Well, other than weight, dimensions, and portability, of course. Bisonoric melodeons are great if that's what floats your boat, and they certainly are more "PC" in some of those gentre subcultures--though that is rapidly changing. But for my money a unisonoric, especially a small one, like a small two-voice, can give all the lift and lilt and swing you could want--provided the player knows and respects the specific idiom, and uses their unisonoric "superpowers" for good rather than for evil.

OP, you might check out the public FB group, "Traditional Irish Piano Accordion." They more or less exist for folks to post clips of playing, and you can just keep scrolling and perusing. There's a wide variety of accordions and tremolo tunings on view to give an idea of the different sounds available.


Below are a few charming sound samples with the type of tuning I think the OP is getting at. This would probably be a "swing" of about 4 cents of tremolo--sounds dry but technically it's not bone-dry--about 4 cents of tremolo just to make it rounder and fuller. The bisonoric Irish melodeon player Jackie Daly's tuning is also around a 4-cent "swing." This tuning is very "in" right now with Irish players on any type of box, and is sometimes called "Irish dry swing."

Hearing the delightful playing of Michael Sheehy, a wonderful exponent of the Irish Sliabh Luachra style (polkas and slides a la Jackie Daly), you'd never know it was a PA if you weren't clued in. I believe he plays a small vintage re-badge Weltmeister type PA.

Michael Sheehy: The Cat’s Rambles

Michael Sheehy: The Cat’s Rambles Music from the Sliabh Luachra tradition Michael Sheehy plays music from the Cork, Kerry, Limerick border, an area known as Sliabh Luachra which means &#82…

www.copperplatemailorder.com

Thanks for the advice. I'll certainly check out that FB group.

 

[Rosie C]

Hi. I've just sold my Hohner Concerto III, because I've started playing a lot more English (and some Irish) folk, and the Hohner was just too brash.

I'm very interested in this as I've *only just* bought a Concerto III for playing English folk - though I play for Morris dancing, and for outdoor performance I was looking for something with a full sound. Strident perhaps, rather than brash! What sort of English folk are you playing?

 

[Rosie C]

As far as folk is concerned, you simply can't beat melodeon

Very true. Some of our Morris side were disappointed when I declined to learn melodeon and went for piano accordion. I pay for it though - lugging 7kg of PA to rehearsals, and having to work it pretty hard to get the energy that the melodeon would have.

 

[dak]

I know I

Very true. Some of our Morris side were disappointed when I declined to learn melodeon and went for piano accordion. I pay for it though - lugging 7kg of PA to rehearsals, and having to work it pretty hard to get the energy that the melodeon would have.

I know I sound like the "4 Yorkshiremen" sketch from Monty Python, but I would dream of lugging 7kg of accordion around. I got more than double than that without the case. On the plus side, for the kind of music I play, a Concerto III is not really the ultimate dream instrument.

 

[Julian H]

As one who plays both systems but has come to focus on PA and CBA over the so-called "diatonics," I can't agree that bisonoric melodeons are unbeatable for traditional folk music. Well, other than weight, dimensions, and portability, of course. Bisonoric melodeons are great if that's what floats your boat, and they certainly are more "PC" in some of those gentre subcultures--though that is rapidly changing. But for my money a unisonoric, especially a small one, like a small two-voice, can give all the lift and lilt and swing you could want--provided the player knows and respects the specific idiom, and uses their unisonoric "superpowers" for good rather than for evil.

OP, you might check out the public FB group, "Traditional Irish Piano Accordion." They more or less exist for folks to post clips of playing, and you can just keep scrolling and perusing. There's a wide variety of accordions and tremolo tunings on view to give an idea of the different sounds available.


Below are a few charming sound samples with the type of tuning I think the OP is getting at. This would probably be a "swing" of about 4 cents of tremolo--sounds dry but technically it's not bone-dry--about 4 cents of tremolo just to make it rounder and fuller. The bisonoric Irish melodeon player Jackie Daly's tuning is also around a 4-cent "swing." This tuning is very "in" right now with Irish players on any type of box, and is sometimes called "Irish dry swing."

Hearing the delightful playing of Michael Sheehy, a wonderful exponent of the Irish Sliabh Luachra style (polkas and slides a la Jackie Daly), you'd never know it was a PA if you weren't clued in. I believe he plays a small vintage re-badge Weltmeister type PA.

Michael Sheehy: The Cat’s Rambles

Michael Sheehy: The Cat’s Rambles Music from the Sliabh Luachra tradition Michael Sheehy plays music from the Cork, Kerry, Limerick border, an area known as Sliabh Luachra which means &#82…

www.copperplatemailorder.com

I'm very interested in this as I've *only just* bought a Concerto III for playing English folk - though I play for Morris dancing, and for outdoor performance I was looking for something with a full sound. Strident perhaps, rather than brash! What sort of English folk are you playing?

I've been playing in trad sessions around Suffolk - Lewis favourites. The Concerto makes a big noise, especially the bass side, so I can see it would be right for Morris.

 

[Rosie C]

I've been playing in trad sessions around Suffolk - Lewis favourites. The Concerto makes a big noise, especially the bass side, so I can see it would be right for Morris.

In fact for a lot of tunes I just work the bass side -providing bass and harmony, leaving the melody to our mandolin player.

 

[dak]

In fact for a lot of tunes I just work the bass side -providing bass and harmony, leaving the melody to our mandolin player.

In time you'll likely learn to fill in chord work with the right hand as well: that can lend a bit more of substance and variety to that part of accompaniment.

 

[Rosie C]

In time you'll likely learn to fill in chord work with the right hand as well: that can lend a bit more of substance and variety to that part of accompaniment.

That would be good. I sometimes play the root of the chord in the right hand, but I'm some way from being able to pick out the 3rd, 5th or 7th at speed. Just a more of more practice needed I think.

 

[saundersbp]

In time you'll likely learn to fill in chord work with the right hand as well: that can lend a bit more of substance and variety to that part of accompaniment.

My experience of these old tunes is that they are often overwhelmed by too much accompaniment, and it's a case of only adding something when it is really needed. Freebass is best way to go to respect these ancient tunes imho.

 

[Pipemajor]

Later came the Costalottis,

Love it

 

[OuijaBoard]

My experience of these old tunes is that they are often overwhelmed by too much accompaniment, and it's a case of only adding something when it is really needed. Freebass is best way to go to respect these ancient tunes imho.

If you mean, freebass accordions-nobody plays freebass accordions for traditional Irish/UK folk genres. They do at times play just the single "freebass notes" on Stradella PAs or bisonoric button boxes as drones, rather than using the chords.

But your point is well-taken about Celtic/UK folk tunes being overwhelmed by over-chording. The rough rule of thumb I was given is, if there are already rhythm and/or chording instruments audible in the group or session, leave off your accordion basses. This is a melodic folk form, and no one wants the tune crushed by monster accordion bass chords. This is what I meant about it being important to respect the idiomatic conventions of the genre, and using our PA or CBA superpowers for good, not evil.

Many bisonoric folk accordions have "sliders" on the bass side to remove the thirds from chords--this is important for PA/CBA players to remember--full minor, dominant seventh, diminished, or augmented bass chords don't sound traditional, at least in Irish trad (I do hear PA chords in some Scottish playing). Often you see very fine Irish and Scottish PA players hitting various chord buttons, but they are doing it virtually inaudibly to stay tasteful.

Here is one of Ireland's finest PA players, Alan Kelly, playing with his brother John on flute and bouzouki wiz Cyril O'Donaghue. Notice his basswork--He is either not playing basses, or he is doing so inaudibly:



Alan Kelly has a variety of projects going, some of them more fusion-y and "progressive." But "Fourmilehouse," his CD with John Kelly of traditional Irish tunes, is a classic, and full of great old-school tunes and gorgeous PA playing:

https://www.amazon.com/Fourmilehouse-Alan-Kelly-John/dp/B00006BXIZ